Players 4 Players Open European Championship 2008

Details of international Foosball events
heinrich
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Players 4 Players Open European Championship 2008

Post by heinrich » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:30 am

Hi,

The above tournament will take place from May 15-18th near Stuttgart, Germany... I hope some of you will make it over to our small and isolated country!

All details can be found here: www.tischfussball-em2008.de

- About 40.000 € price money in the open events;

- There will also be a team event called "Nation's Cup"; see sticky posted by Boris;

- Table is the P4P-Lehmacher -- "Tournament Soccer" style; the table is also nearly identical to the Tecball table (actually, it's the same manufacturer, who designed the Tecball as a clone of the P4P model...) - you can see some pictures of the table here: http://www.tischfussball-em2008.de/Turn ... ch1.0.html. The table has hollow rods, that will come as a relief to those who still remember the heavy rods we used to have until about a year ago...

Hope to see you in May!
Heinrich

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Post by heinrich » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:50 am

...BTW, regarding the ranking of players: our policy is to rank every player who is not already in our list one categor lower than in their native ranking system. For the UK that would mean, based on the current Tornado rankings:

1 Atha Robert M GBR Tor 5261 Pro-Master
2 Hamilton Joe M GBR Tor 2879 Pro-Master
3 Cloney Norman M IRL Tor 2795 Pro-Master
4 Amsden Mike M GBR Tor 2737 Pro-Master
5 Sohi Jujhar Singh M GBR Tor 2624 Pro-Master
6 Shovelton Alex M GBR Tor 2519 Pro-Master
7 Davey Robert M GBR Tor 2504 Pro-Master
8 Ziemann Dave M GBR Tor 2496 Pro-Master
9 Burdett Tom M GBR Tor 2483 Pro-Master
10 Bareham Dave M GBR Tor 2405 Pro-Master

--> These players will be ranked "Master" in our list, meaning they can play only the open events (not Semi-Pro or Rookie).

11 Panesar Raj M GBR Tor 2227 Pro
...
29 Jack Rafael M GBR Tor 1805 Pro

--> These will be ranked "Semi-Pro" (=Amateur), meaning they can play the open and Semi-Pro events, but not Rookie.

Everyone below will be ranked Rookie, and therefore can play all events.

I hope that answers all question regarding the ranking for our event; and I hope to see many of you in May! (P.S.: in the week before, there is Frederic's tournament in Borgloon, and in the week before that, the Bonzini WCS in France -- so you can plan an extended foosball trip if you like :-)

Greetings,
Heinrich

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Post by shovie » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:16 pm

This is a shame

Don't expect many of us to come...

Alex

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Post by Boris » Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:19 pm

I have had extensive correspondence with Heinrich seeking fair treatment of UK players (e.g. pros and PMs no higher than Amateur other than Rob), but he said that if he made an exception for the UK then other nations would seek similar treatment.  I also warned that UK players wouldn't come if they didn't see themselves as having a chance.

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Post by MikeF » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:28 pm

Well if I was a German Semi-Pro, I'd be angry if some foreign Pro-Masters were allowed to come and walk all over the Semi-Pro events at a German tournament.

I think that the time for us to be considered as the "poor players of Europe" is over. Look at those top ten UK players - any of them could dominate SP's on most tables, at least place highly. They could also do well enough in the Open events to make an impact. Yes, Rob is the only real established international Top player, but we should start to acknowledge that UK players are getting stronger.

Our players complain when foreign players are allowed to enter the lower events of UK tournaments. It goes both ways. Obviously, if a Top American PM came to a UK tourney, he would be restricted to Open events. Would one of their lower Pro's be allowed into SP events? I doubt it. German Lehmacher PM's in Sp doubles in Hereford? Don't think so.

Funnily enough this all comes down to the big question currently being talked about elsewhere :- Why do we go to tournaments?

Why go to tournaments abroad?
Money? Experience? Meeting people? Status?
To what degree does each motivating element affect each person?

I happen to think our top players are motivated differently than the rest of us. Perhaps a questionnaire as being discussed would help us understand more.

Pah - I'm going on too much again.. :P This is such a clumsy medium for debate
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Post by Mike A » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:19 pm

Was thinking about going to this, will not do so now. Whilst I do not critisise the UK ranking system in itself, our domestic rankings do appear to be hindering further player development.

Rob is the ONLY pro master in the UK, the rest of us struggle against international semi pros, and frequently come unstuck against international amateurs.
That said, our domestic rankings have to differentiate against players internally, therefore the separation boundaries of pro and pro master are used (however internationally speaking this is really quite inappropriate).

Given the way that many tournament organisers now insist on ranking according to highest ranking on any list, a question has to be asked of the quality of that list. The UK is poor quality (not critisising anyone here, simply a statement about our relative standards on the world scene).

Consequently, as a result of our ranking system we are hindering further development of our player base by creating the illusion that we are better than we really are, this is now acting as a barrier to entering good quality overseas events.

In my opinion our ranking boundaries (PM, P, SP, A, N) should be adjusted to reflect the quality of the scene, and that by frequently playing amongst ourselves as Novice/Amateur/semi pro players we do not inflate ourselves excessively (as is currently the position).

In order to differentiate players for the purposes of (grades of amateur/semi pro) standards in the UK, we should be using ranking number rather than these arbitrary tags which misrepresent our standard on the international scene.

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Post by Mike A » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:29 pm

For example, there are US semi pros, who in Rob Atha's absence could come to the UK and wipe the floor with everyone in the UK. Some US amateurs could do this too.

These semi pros can enter as semi pros in the above event, whereas our 'pro masters' who cannot touch the aforementioned US semi pros are ranked as pro masters.

Utterly rediculous.

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Post by Boris » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:33 pm

After we beat France, Belgium and Switzerland to reach the Garlando Nations Cup final our claim to be the weak boys (and girls) of Europe carries less weight.

This looks like being a brilliant tournament.

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Post by Mike A » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:47 pm

This one anomolous result should not be used as an argument that we are better than we really are. There is no comparison between 'Nations Cup' style events and 'Open Events'.

Look at our results in competition in general, even when our best players  travel, they are no-where to be seen in the latter stages of open events, it is rare to see them in latter stages of semi pro events.

Other than Rob Atha, our pro masters are so obviously semi pro at best.


When we did so well in the nations cup, where did our players then finish in the Open, semi pro, and Amateur events???

Nations cup is NOT a valid measure of our comparative standard.

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Post by MikeF » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:14 pm

I can't be bothered with all the "wading through treacle" that is the experience of trying to have a serious debate on the forum about something as important as this. So..

Here are a couple of thoughts (about the QUALITY of the game in the UK - problems of growing the game can be looked at elsewhere) :

Given that our players are really not that good - We need to accelerate the increase in skills of our player base.

Our top players need to be coached. They need their game examined, analysed, and problem areas identified and training introduced to deal with them.

Our top players need to coach talented players who have faults in their game and cannot seem to fix them alone. We need to stop selfish behaviour at the top levels where an edge over a player is worth a higher place at a tournament so nobody tells the guy what to do to sort it out. I'd rather see the players develop with the help of talented coaching and the top players then having to work harder on their own games to beat them instead of just using the knowledge of their flaws to do it.

Let's look at two players for example, Alex Shovelton and Mike Amsden. Both are talented foosers, they also have the ability to adjust their game to their opponents and can beat most other players. However, they both underperform against tougher opposition or in different situations (like overseas events) so some things are at fault in their games. Both these players are worth the effort I am talking about. Somebody KNOWS what they should do to fix their games, at least to enable them to go to the next level.

There are plenty of other talented players here, who would all benefit from this more open "coaching" kind of mentality. Not only that, but ALL players would benefit from more coaching, making the player base much more competitive and thus making our top players have to work harder to keep winning - it's a win win situation :)

Getting people to do this will not be easy. Some people work hard to study their opponents and figure out how to beat them, so getting them to give this up is asking a lot. However, I am talking about giving it to the real talented players, who will then take it on and move it up.

Me? I would definitely benefit from coaching, however I am past being able to develop my game to the highest levels. I am not talking about me, except at lower level general benefit to my game. We know who these players are who would most benefit. Helping them, I believe, would help us all, because week in, week out we will be playing against better opposition. Foreign trips then become far less of a "quality shock".

I think you can see where I'm going with this, the hows and wheres of everything is beyond this poor writer, but it is what needs to be done!

Have to stop....getting too old....typing makes me tired now  :P
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Post by Mike A » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:47 pm

I agree with everything you say Mike.

However, one of the best ways for our top players to develop once they reach the top of our limited game in the UK, is to then go abroad to play, however our ranking system is now preventing entry into the Amateur events just at the point in those players development when they would benefit from them the most (and are by no means too good for that category).

Many players do not travel until they feel they have got a grip on the game in the UK first, however by the time that happens they have been promoted to pro master and can no longer enter the most appropriate events for their international standard.

It then makes travelling to foreign tournaments an expensive proposition that offers much less developmentally. It is far less satisfying as you watch much better players compete for lower ranked titles. It is such a shame that we are shooting ourselves in the foot for the sake of saying that we are better players than we really are.

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Post by davez » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:33 pm

Perhaps it would make more sense for Heinrich to use the ITSF ranking.

This is also a better measure of multi-table performance, relevant here in that hardly anyone from the UK has played on this table.

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Post by Shovo » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:53 pm

Lol. If he did that, there would be hundreds of underranked players and we would be complaining about that instead.

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Post by shovie » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:50 am

MikeF wrote:We need to stop selfish behaviour at the top levels where an edge over a player is worth a higher place at a tournament so nobody tells the guy what to do to sort it out.
I've heard that this was the case back in the day, but us young'uns are far more willing to help each other out. I'm sure I've screwed myself over by letting my opponent know what edge I had over them after I'd played them, only to meet them in the losers bracket and either lose or find it much more difficult to win!

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Post by MikeF » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:39 am

Heh, this thread has wandered - mainly my fault I know  :oops:
But it has prompted my brain into thinking about developing the game in the UK. I have had a brainwave on how to achieve this, using elements of what I have said in this thread, in what I hope could be a practical and positive way. I will think and develop the idea a bit more and then open a discussion with the BFA about it.

Regarding the actual thread itself - this tournament looks really good and it would be a shame if some of our best talent didn't attend. Our current ranking system is flawed and is probably not helping our case. Funnily enough, our improved performances mentioned by Boris have also had an effect on our perceived strength in Europe. Our game (and ranking system) is in a difficult transition stage and there is a lot of work to be done yet!

Alex - are you sure?  :wink:
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Post by Mogwai » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:45 am

Our ranking system is not flawed, just the terms we use. Change the following:

3500+: Pro Master

then after that:
Pro Master = Pro
Pro= Semi-pro
Semi-Pro=Amateur
Amateur = Novice
Novice = Beginner

Then we have a more comparable ranking system to others in the World. We could do this today with about 20 seconds work. For internal comps it doesn't matter what the words are as long as the classes stay the same, however on the international stage we get penalised for using the same terminology as other Nations.

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Post by Jonathan may » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:21 am

Mogwai wrote:Our ranking system is not flawed, just the terms we use. Change the following:

3500+: Pro Master

then after that:
Pro Master = Pro
Pro= Semi-pro
Semi-Pro=Amateur
Amateur = Novice
Novice = Beginner

Then we have a more comparable ranking system to others in the World. We could do this today with about 20 seconds work. For internal comps it doesn't matter what the words are as long as the classes stay the same, however on the international stage we get penalised for using the same terminology as other Nations.
A wonderfully sensible suggestion. Mike A seems to be suggesting something similar as well. This is what a lot of other countries do too. When people start to reach Rob's standard - ie able to actually compete with him when he's trying - then they can be called a Pro-Master. Until then even calling them Pros is presumptuous.

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Post by MikeF » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:25 am

I agree!

Simple is good :)
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Post by Happyham » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:04 pm

I think that the UK top players are not far behind the european top players at all.  

Look at people like Alex, Juj, John, perhaps myself.  All beaten top players in europe or played them very tough at least.  

I agree that it sucks if we aren't AM at a european tourny, but thats the kinda thing we were 2 years ago man!  I think that theres never gona be a perfect solution at tournies to bar ringers from certain events, and UK players have had the benefit of being blatently underranked in europe / america too.  (Me and Jon in RD at worlds, me and Jon both think we are semi pro standard at least on garlando, Juj as amateur in Kentucky, we all know how good Juj is on tornado).  

The point I'm making is, sure it would be nice if we were Amateurs, because we would make more money, have more events, pay less etc.  However the bottom line is, our top players at the moment I dont think ARE amateurs!  Especially not in europe where the game is certainly not as tough as the US.  I appreciate its different, but wide concensus would agree that it is weaker than the US.

You mean to tell me that me and Juj can win rookie and amateur events over in the states, but would be annoyed if we wernt amateur in europe?!  I dont think so.

So yeah it would be nice for all the benefits of amateur, but if not, then hey, we are fightin in a couple of open events in europe, which we would all have aspirations of doing well in anyways!

My only gripe with it all is that we are master ranked on a table ive never played on.  (If I am understanding the situation right?  :?)  By all means rank me high on tornado on garlando, but not on a table ive never played on before lol.  

I understand that the gap between the top top players and the high pros is becoming larger and larger, so I appreciate that this ranking system is not suitable for pros either.  But my whole point was directed at our top 6-8 in the UK, which I believe is stronger than a lot of people give credit.

Top players in the UK, step up to the plate, and dominate!
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Post by Mogwai » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:06 pm

Ham, do you think the UK "Pros" (not Pro-Masters) are worthy of Semi-Pro status on the continent or US?

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