Using left hand on 3-bar

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Graeme
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Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Graeme » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:52 am

When is it ok to shoot on the 3-bar left-handed? I've been told that it's fine for singles but not for doubles... is this right? A left-handed fresher at Oxford was wanting to shoot left-handed in doubles and I told him he couldn't switch his hands over. This is definitely a rule in the Oxford rules (it's there to prevent right-handed people using their right hand on the 5-bar in doubles and just hacking rather than learning to pass) but it doesn't seem to be mentioned explicitly in the ITSF rules.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by davez » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:15 am

Interesting. You're right, it does not seem to be explicitly mentioned. Here are some relevant discussion points.

I assume that your player waits one second before shooting after he transfers his left hand. Otherise it would undeniably be a distraction.

However, even if he does wait one second, you could perhaps call him for a distraction by a particular interpretation of this rule:

20. Distraction
20.5 A player who removes his hands from the handles and reaches down or away from the table (to wipe his hands, apply rosin, etc) while the ball is in play shall be charged with a distraction.

There is another interesting consideration though. It may be that it's convenient for ITSF to keep the rules unmodified for use in the wheelchair/'disabled' tournament. In which case they might want to avoid a rule that makes explicit limb cardinality assumptions.

And that's not a phrase you get to read everyday now is it?.

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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by davez » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:27 am

By the way Graeme, personally I think the motivation for disallowing Oxford players from shooting right-handed 5-bar hacks is ill-conceived.

I don't think you should put rules in that coerce players to learn a style of play that you consider to be 'better' in some way. If a player has great success with right-handled 5-bar hacks let him use it and let others learn how to defend it. If and when he has no such sucess he will have to learn a new way if he wants to win.

That's just a personal opinion though, not a rule interpretation. It may be considered an infringement anyway, and it's within your rights as a referee to disallow it under the distraction ruling.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Martyn » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:40 am

It's the curse foosball left handers have always had.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by leaks » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:45 am

Martyn wrote:It's the curse foosball left handers have always had.
Better natural control on the 5 bar? It must be tough ;)

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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Graeme » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:53 am

davez wrote:By the way Graeme, personally I think the motivation for disallowing Oxford players from shooting right-handed 5-bar hacks is ill-conceived.
EDIT: just to clarify in this post I'm talking about the Oxford rules, not the ITSF ones

You aren't allowed to switch hands over in doubles but you *can* still shoot right-handed from the 5-bar in singles (although not right from the kick-off). And of course many players do this (me too, sometimes).

I didn't actually come up with these rules, incidentally, they've been there since before I was. Although I do agree with them and don't intend to change them.
Last edited by Graeme on Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Boris » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:28 am

Graeme wrote: You aren't allowed to switch hands over in doubles but you *can* still shoot right-handed from the 5-bar in singles (although not right from the kick-off). And of course many players do this (me too, sometimes).
You can shoot with any hand you want on any bar in singles, even from the kick-off (subject to the ready/serving rules protocol). There is nothing in the rules to stop you shooting left-handed on the 3-bar, except distractions, but provided you waited one second after changing hands (maybe throw in a 'ready' to make sure) and didn't wave your right hand about, you should be OK.

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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by davez » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:31 am

Boris, if you say ready in that example I will call you for a distraction!
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Graeme » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:53 am

Boris wrote:
Graeme wrote: You aren't allowed to switch hands over in doubles but you *can* still shoot right-handed from the 5-bar in singles (although not right from the kick-off). And of course many players do this (me too, sometimes).
You can shoot with any hand you want on any bar in singles, even from the kick-off (subject to the ready/serving rules protocol). There is nothing in the rules to stop you shooting left-handed on the 3-bar, except distractions, but provided you waited one second after changing hands (maybe throw in a 'ready' to make sure) and didn't wave your right hand about, you should be OK.
Yes Boris I understand that, what I wrote is the way the Oxford rules work (I was clarifying them in case Dave had thought I was saying that we don't allow players to shoot right-handed from the 5-bar in singles). I know about the ITSF rules for singles, what I'm not sure on is the ITSF rules on swapping your hands over in doubles.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by brodie » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:14 pm

''20.4. It is considered a distraction, after setting up a shot, to remove a hand from the handle and then immediately shoot the ball. The ball may only be shot after both hands (and/or wrist) have been on both handles for one full second. ''


This seems to imply if the shot was set up, even if the left hand is allowed to move to the 3-bar, the right hand would have to be on the 5-bar handle in order to shoot. I'd assume passing to the 3-bar normaly then switching hands would constitute 'setting up the shot'
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by davez » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:00 pm

Brodie,

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think that that interpretation was considered when the rule was written. I think what they meant was that the rule applies to both hands, i.e. that you have to wait one second after the last of your hands returns to its handle, if you see what I mean.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by yu_zhuk » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:27 am

I've seen a Brasilian player shooting back-pins with his right hand from 5-bar in doubles at ITSF World Cup. Thier opponents called a ref. Adrian Zamora came and ruled that he should hold a 3-bar with his left hand while shooting - after that he shot crossed-armed (with some success).
Thus I assume you can shoot with your left hand from 3-bar as long as you hold the 5 with your right. And that would also apply to singles (20.4 and 20.4.1), if you set the ball. But not to shooting from 5-bar, or on-the-fly shots - these can be performed with no restrictions in singles.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Graeme » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:46 am

Interesting, thanks. So I guess it sounds like switching your hands over in doubles is ok under the ITSF rules provided (i) both hands are on a handle and (ii) you wait a second before shooting after each switch.

I would have thought more people would attempt to block opponents' passing with their hands swapped over (right hand on 5) in doubles if this was permitted. I think I'll start trying this.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Happyham » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:09 am

Graeme wrote:I would have thought more people would attempt to block opponents' passing with their hands swapped over (right hand on 5) in doubles if this was permitted. I think I'll start trying this.

I've played against a few opponents who have done this. Its legit.
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Re: Using left hand on 3-bar

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:43 pm

I've played people who have switched to using both hands of the 5 in doubles for 5 bar D. I've done this before and no one has ever made an issue of it, sure I've even done it at a world championship.

Hope this is fine, because I do like it as an option, as I do have a completely inept left hand. I've even always held the knife in my left hand and folk in the right (eating etiquette test there), even though this has always been an issue for half of my family. Was brought up also when I was having dinner with Chris Patten last week, who I found out actually owns a Bonzini - the most famous fooser? Yes this is all unrelated, but it's a slow day at work :D

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