Reading Tourney Rules Questions

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Rytis Mitkus
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Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by Rytis Mitkus » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:49 am

MOD - Topic split from Reading Afterglow discussion
Jon May wrote: A rules clarification might be in order, I'm still unsure. Stationary/pinned ball from the 2 rod is hit into your own 5-rod. If you gain possession on the 5, it's a stationary pass. If it rolls back between the 5 and the opponents 3 and comes to a standstill, it returns to your 2-bar. I find that slightly odd, but acceptable, as I guess it's a shot that just happened to hit the 5. This happened and caused a brief dispute, with me concluding loudly "it won't happen again so it's fine!". Two balls later Alex does it again, only this time, the ball is clearly in his possession on the 5 bar for a good 3-4 seconds, but he just holds his 5 bar out of the way and lets it roll slowly backwards until it rolls dead again between his 5 and my 3. Interpretation? He was clearly in possession of the ball, but calling it deliberately playing the ball dead would seem a fairly harsh interpretation - and if it is a stationary pass then so was the first one? At what point is a player deemed to have gained possession of the ball?
to Jon May, im Lithuanian referee so look what i found for you;) hope this will answer your question.
Rule number 24. Time of possession:
Possession is defined as the ball being within reach of a player figure.
so if he could have touched the ball he had the possession of the ball.
Rule number 23.3, Passing:
Passing from the two-man to the same teams five-man is ruled the same as 23.1 except that if the balls should strike an opposing team's player figures, the ball is no longer considered a pass but a live ball that may be legally caught by any player.
didnt understand your question about this but i think this rule is the right one.

Rule number 8.4, Dead ball:
A ball that is intentionally made dead shall be awarded to the opposing team for a serve. (Example: pushing the ball from the bottom until out of reach)
i saw that moment, so i think it was fault...

hope this will help you!

Nub
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Re: Reading Tourney Afterglow

Post by Nub » Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:56 pm

Rytis Mitkus wrote:
Rule number 24. Time of possession:
Possession is defined as the ball being within reach of a player figure.
so if he could have touched the ball he had the possession of the ball.
Just to be silly: then every shot from the 2 which passes the opponent's 3 is in your possession on the 5, even if it zips past down to the other end of the table.

Every 2 bar shot is a stationary pass! (nearly)

Rytis Mitkus
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Re: Reading Tourney Afterglow

Post by Rytis Mitkus » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:18 pm

do not be so tight on rules. its like about rolling more than 360 degrees rule. mainly it prevents players to play like noobs, just rolling and rolling. if if u are shooting snake and u accidentally do like 361 degrees its okay, no worries. i hope u understood what i meant.

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Boris
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Re: Reading Tourney Afterglow

Post by Boris » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:48 pm

Highlight was a stupid goal in the 3rd where I shot a snake, lost control, smashed it into the post and span the rod... the ball came back like lightning off the post and my near 3-bar man span round and smashed the ball in the goal and the rod stopped spinning immediately. Counts, just sucks. Sorry John.
Don't think this should have counted, as the rod would presumably have rotated more than 360 degrees before hitting the second ball (i.e. around 330 to do the initial shot plus another 330 or so when it hit the rebound, unless it stopped in the meantime, total continuous rotation 660+ degrees = illegal spin).

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Jonathan May
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Re: Reading Tourney Afterglow

Post by Jonathan May » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:50 pm

Boris wrote:
Highlight was a stupid goal in the 3rd where I shot a snake, lost control, smashed it into the post and span the rod... the ball came back like lightning off the post and my near 3-bar man span round and smashed the ball in the goal and the rod stopped spinning immediately. Counts, just sucks. Sorry John.
Don't think this should have counted, as the rod would presumably have rotated more than 360 degrees before hitting the second ball (i.e. around 330 to do the initial shot plus another 330 or so when it hit the rebound, unless it stopped in the meantime, total continuous rotation 660+ degrees = illegal spin).
330 before hitting the ball, 0 immediately after, rod keeps rotating, on the next rotation hits the ball = 330 before hitting the next ball, 0 after. What's the problem?
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Boris
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Re: Reading Tourney Afterglow

Post by Boris » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:54 pm

Jon May wrote:
Boris wrote:
Highlight was a stupid goal in the 3rd where I shot a snake, lost control, smashed it into the post and span the rod... the ball came back like lightning off the post and my near 3-bar man span round and smashed the ball in the goal and the rod stopped spinning immediately. Counts, just sucks. Sorry John.
Don't think this should have counted, as the rod would presumably have rotated more than 360 degrees before hitting the second ball (i.e. around 330 to do the initial shot plus another 330 or so when it hit the rebound, unless it stopped in the meantime, total continuous rotation 660+ degrees = illegal spin).
330 before hitting the ball, 0 immediately after, rod keeps rotating, on the next rotation hits the ball = 330 before hitting the next ball, 0 after. What's the problem?
The problem is not the initial shot, as this would have been legal, but as the rod had been rotating continuously for nearly 2 full revolutions before hitting the rebound that should have been called as a spin (more than 360 before hitting the ball), the fact it had hit the ball in the meantime is immaterial.

I've put the question to Tom Yore, ITSF head official for a ruling, but am pretty sure this would be the decision, as I can recall similar occurrences in the past which were called as spins. I'll let you know his response.

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shovie
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Re: Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by shovie » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Back to the rule dispute in my game with Jon, the first time I had no chance of retrieving the ball, i just hit it into my 5 bar accidentally and it stopped between my 5 bar and Jon's 3 bar. In my opinion this wasn't a foul.

The second time the ball was very much in my control as it was within reach for enough time for me to stop it, but i thought it would be funny to do it again :wink: . On this occasion I gave Jon the ball.

I think the right decision was made on each occasion.

Alex

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Graeme
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Re: Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by Graeme » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:39 pm

shovie wrote:Back to the rule dispute in my game with Jon, the first time I had no chance of retrieving the ball, i just hit it into my 5 bar accidentally and it stopped between my 5 bar and Jon's 3 bar. In my opinion this wasn't a foul.

The second time the ball was very much in my control as it was within reach for enough time for me to stop it, but i thought it would be funny to do it again :wink: . On this occasion I gave Jon the ball.

I think the right decision was made on each occasion.
I saw both incidents and yeah I agree; I don't know about the rules on this but from a common sense point of view I felt you (Alex) shouldn't have been penalised for the first one and shouldn't have been allowed to take advantage of the second one.
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Jonathan May
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Re: Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by Jonathan May » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:42 pm

I happen to agree with respect to how we handled both incidents, I just wondered if there could be any formal clarity. Boris - mind asking Tom Yore?
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Boris
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Re: Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by Boris » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:32 pm

Tom Yore wrote: Boris,

It is impossible for this not to be a spin. The rod has clearly rotated more than 360 before hitting the ball a second time.

Regards,

Tom Yore, President
ITSF Rules Commission

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Jonathan May
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Re: Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by Jonathan May » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:57 pm

Boris wrote:
Tom Yore wrote: Boris,

It is impossible for this not to be a spin. The rod has clearly rotated more than 360 before hitting the ball a second time.

Regards,

Tom Yore, President
ITSF Rules Commission
Boris - whilst I respect the position the fact that two UK Pro-Masters thought this was allowed suggests that greater clarity on this rule should be given.

Did you ask Tom about the more interesting question?
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Messiah
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Re: Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by Messiah » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:03 pm

Jon May wrote: Boris - whilst I respect the position the fact that two UK Pro-Masters thought this was allowed suggests that greater clarity on this rule should be given.
Or that Uk pro-masters are a bit dim :D
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davez
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Re: Reading Tourney Rules Questions

Post by davez » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:32 pm

Or that two Uk pro-masters are a bit dim.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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