Rule Question

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Mike A
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Rule Question

Post by Mike A » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:05 pm

20.4 It is considered a distraction, after setting up a shot, to remove a hand from the handle and
then immediately shoot the ball. The ball may only be shot after both hands (and/or wrist) have been on both handles for one full second.

Does this rule apply to changing grip? If so I think it needs clarifying.

When changing from front pin grip to snake grip people often maintain contact with the handle by sliding their hand/wrist into position. Some people snake with their lower arm/wrist, others keep part of their hand on the handle, does this mean that those people who snake from the arm/wrist are breaking the rule by shooting immediately after changing their grip, but those who snake from the hand are not (in cases where contact is maintained with the handle)?

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Naked Snake
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Re: Rule Question

Post by Naked Snake » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:42 pm

Mike A wrote:...does this mean that those people who snake from the arm/wrist are breaking the rule by shooting immediately after changing their grip, but those who snake from the hand are not (in cases where contact is maintained with the handle)?
Basically, yes. But I think most snake shooters slide/rotate their wrist to the correct position.

And one second goes pretty quickly.
Just Cup Them

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:41 am

This is my thinking too, but a few people have tried to call this as a distraction down the pub, so before this becomes an argument in a tournament, I thought I would seek further guidance.

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Post by Phil Williams » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:50 am

if you were doing this in america and none of the top palyers picked you up there for doing it, i would assume it is ok

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leaks
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Post by leaks » Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:30 am

haha - is this just cos I picked u up on it? To be honest, to tell whether the other player actually loses contact with the handle or not is not easy, but I think the majority of snake shooters do, even if it is only for a brief moment.

I usually make sure I wait a second as a courtesy to the other player even though my wrist barely breaks contact with the handle. If I didn't, Id feel like I was intentionally breaking a rule that I knew about.

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:24 am

leaks wrote: I usually make sure I wait a second as a courtesy to the other player even though my wrist barely breaks contact with the handle. If I didn't, Id feel like I was intentionally breaking a rule that I knew about.
Oli, I don't actually remember you calling it, but about 3 others have tried.

Why wait out of courtesy? If they are not ready that is their problem.

That said, if in your case you shoot from the wrist rather than keeping part of your hand on the handle, then you should wait a second after changing your grip anyway, since your hand has left the handle whether your wrist loses contact or not.

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Re: Rule Question

Post by Nub » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:21 pm

Mike A wrote:20.4 It is considered a distraction, after setting up a shot, to remove a hand from the handle and
then immediately shoot the ball.
What about wrenches? It seems that in shooting them you are precisely removing your hand from the handle and then immediately shooting...

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Post by leaks » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:46 pm

Mike A wrote:Why wait out of courtesy? If they are not ready that is their problem.
What I meant was that just because they wouldn't call me up on breaking the 1 second rule, I wouldn't feel comfortable taking advantage of that fact just to score - especially against newer players who may have an inkling of the rule but not be confident enough to call their opponent on it. I know it's illegal, so I won't do it.

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:44 am

That should go without saying for any rule (don't break the rules), this thread was started to discuss a scenario whereby people may believe you are breaking a rule when you are not, and you therefore rightly do not wait a second un-necessarily.

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Post by Phil Williams » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:41 am

all you can do is wait a bit longer on the shot to avoid the questions.

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:46 am

I will not do that.

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Mase
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Post by Mase » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:51 am

I think this is great, everyone is going to call slag for this. You've opened up a can of worms. "Can i have a ref please" will be too fmailiar a shout at holywell.

I wont call u on it mike. Ill just lose and say u cheated. LOL

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:53 am

Excellent, I am happy with that.

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leaks
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Post by leaks » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:55 am

Well it depends if u care if they call a ref on you or not for it, after which point you may be made to wait a second each time by the ref depending on whether they deem u to be losing contact or not.

I think the answer is pretty obvious - If you lose contact wait a second, if you don't lose contact don't wait but be prepared to have a ref called.

I hope we play each other at Holywell hehe ;)

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:05 am

Absolutely, I hope we play each other too :)

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Mase
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Post by Mase » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:23 am

I hope i play you both in the winners.  8)

Mase

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Post by shovie » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:39 pm

I've always thought that it should be called as a distraction, but haven't mentioned it because it would be a bit anal to do so. However I'd have no problem calling it if I was reffing a match, Mike.

Alex

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:22 pm

That's all very well and good alex, but if it is not against the rules, then you are 1) disadvantaging the game in the UK by reffing it like that, since it is fine in tournaments in the states, where players do it quite often and 2) reffing poorly.

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Mike A
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Post by Mike A » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:37 pm

If it is deemed to be something we don't want in the game then sure, reword the rule.

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Jonathan May
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Post by Jonathan May » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:50 pm

I wish someone who actually KNEW could wade into this discussion and clarify it.

I raised precisely this issue at the time the Garlando lot decided to (temporarily) permit spins so long as you didn't lose contact with the rod. I was told (by Boris, I think) at the time that the snake had an exemption from the rule.

Does this rule only apply to set shots on the 3-bar?

I'd personally be more worried about front-pin rollovers than the snake. Many people "spin" and catch the rod to do a front-pin rollover. Technically, they lose contact before the man hits the ball. Technically therefore shooting a rollover like this is banned. But I don't recall ever seeing anyone even suggest it's banned...

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