Should the snake be legal?

Off-topic discussion, jokes, miscellaneous requests
Locked

Should the snake be legal?

yes
46
61%
no
29
39%
 
Total votes: 75

User avatar
Philo
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:35 pm
Real Name: Phil Cutcliffe
Location: Southampton

Should the snake be legal?

Post by Philo » Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:23 am

The snake, love it or hate it its here to stay. But should it have been legal in the first place?
This seems to be a topic everyone has an opinion on and its clogging up the rest of the forum so please direct your pro/anti snake rants here.

I am a snake shooter; I have put a lot of practice into it and I am happy to say I now have a reasonably irritating Garlando snake. I play to win and I practice the snake as I feel it gives me more chance of scoring than any other shot. Were it to be banned or prove ineffective on a certain table I would practice the next highest % shot.
Philo

albert
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:25 am
Real Name: albert andoh
Location: Brighton, East Sussex

should the snake be Legal

Post by albert » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:28 pm

Philo

I would be very interested to know if the snake was banned (We shall overcome, the devil snake must be beaten Praise the Lord)


1) What would you shoot instead & Why

2) do you have a backup shot and what is it

3) Have you always shot the snake or what shot did you start out with.

cheers


Albert

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:49 pm

As irritating as it may be to some platers, the snake does do some good. A one year rookie can have an effective enough shot to take a scalp or two in Open competition. If it were to be banned my suggestion would be to ban it for Pro/Pro Masters who should have more to their game

User avatar
Philo
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:35 pm
Real Name: Phil Cutcliffe
Location: Southampton

Re: should the snake be Legal

Post by Philo » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:34 pm

albert wrote:Philo

I would be very interested to know if the snake was banned (We shall overcome, the devil snake must be beaten Praise the Lord)

1) What would you shoot instead & Why

2) do you have a backup shot and what is it

3) Have you always shot the snake or what shot did you start out with.

cheers
Like many students I started playing on a slippery block feet Garlando. For years I never even saw a pin let alone a snake. At Swansea Uni we played fast never stopping the ball and the only thing that I could say I had that even resembled a shot was an on the fly tap-bang from the wing to the centre man. I was the best in Swansea and I thought I was great. 8) Then I went to back home to Southampton where I was forced to play with tornado pros...

Needless to say I took a few hammerings and had to hide in defence most games. I adapted and I needed a shot so I learnt a snake. I can play just about all the shots to some level but the only one I would even consider using as a backup is my tic tac which while much improved since my uni days is still rather poor.

So to answer your questions:
1) A tictac, as I can do it a little already, don’t need to pin or stop it, and it impresses noobs.
2) Not really.
3) Always the snake
Philo

User avatar
Richard
Posts: 1703
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:50 pm
Real Name: Richard Thomson
Location: London

Post by Richard » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:49 am

I voted to ban the snake, and feel i need no greater justification than Philo's response to albert's question.

However, perhaps a more pertinent question is whether a tournament organiser should have the power to amend rules (including but not restricted to the 360degree spin rule to prohibit snakes) at ranking tournaments.

I think that there are a number of reasons why you would want to consider this:
1) At true novice/beginner events one extremely bad snake shooter could win simply by terrifying people who had never played the shot before. To promote the spirit of a novice competition i think i would support an organiser who wanted to ban snakes in the novice event
2) Some sections of the playing community (notably the 20 or so Bath regulars) dislike or want to amend specific rules. If i am to persuade them to run open event (remember the alternative is them running events to which BFA members simply do not get invited to) then flexibility is required:
- snakes (believed to be a spin by c.30% of players including snake shooters)
- through bars/pin feet (basically the table is not what they play on so why would they bother)
- midfield shooting rule (disadvantages women)
- time outs (not part of the pub game).
- time limits (slow the game down)
- wall pass (trivialises the game on wide-spring garlandos)
3) Every event has differing goals and different rules can affect how well the event achieves its goals. FSO/GW are a good example of this

All this stems from my belief that the Britfoos community needs to be more supportive of efforts to increase the number and type of tables we play on, increase the involvement of fringe playing communities, increase the product offering to cater for wider event objectives and be more supportive of tournament organisers and their differing objective.

Hack Hack Hack
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:18 pm
Real Name: James Short
Location: Surrey Uni, Guildford.

Post by Hack Hack Hack » Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:13 am

I'd rather the snake was banned simply because it can make the game quite dull.

However, since it's used in other countries, it would only put us at a disadvantage internationally not to come up against it in local competitions.

User avatar
Cotty
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:55 pm
Real Name: Matt Cotterill
Location: Leeds, Yorkshire

Post by Cotty » Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:39 am

Rich, I agree that the tournament organiser should have the right to specify what events and format they are to use. However to be a RANKING EVENT (bugger, Imanpoor syndrome) all the shots that players use must be an option. I have no problem with Bath holding an event and rules of their choosing, if it was non-ranking.

I voted legal, but I'm a snake shooter so I'm gonna be a bit bias. James has a good point, we must be able to play against these type of shots if we are to improve and beat the overseas players.

Matt.

p.s. Albert, your extending yourself a bit. This is more than your 1 post a year :D
"A day without laughing is a day wasted"

User avatar
Brian Harms
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:37 pm
Real Name: Brian Harms
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Post by Brian Harms » Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:57 am

I've probably let in more snake shots than anybody so would'nt mind if it was banned but I don't lose any sleep over it.
Brian

User avatar
paddy
Posts: 455
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:02 pm
Real Name: Patrick Grover
Location: Oxford

Post by paddy » Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:02 am

I'm a snake-shooter but voted it should not be legal. I've never been that against the snake but I think the game as a whole would be better off without it - it's a weird spin basically and I never play it except at tournaments. I'd only agree with a ban if it was worldwide. Local bans in England or at certain English tournaments are not an option in my opinion.

Having toyed with other shots I don't think the snake takes much less skill however - most other shots are equally mechanical when you get them to a high enough level.

paddy

User avatar
Philo
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:35 pm
Real Name: Phil Cutcliffe
Location: Southampton

Post by Philo » Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:10 am

Just wanted to say the snake has its weaknesses too:
It is unlike any other shots to play so practicing it does not help the rest of your games. This is why you sometimes see a strong snake on a weak player. His practice has not helped his all round game.
It requires a lot of practice! No its not something you can pick up over night.
You have to pin before you can shoot, can be hard on a slippery table.
Remember so many people cant go long on both sides..
webmaster wrote:I voted to ban the snake, and feel i need no greater justification than Philo's response to albert's question.
Rich,

If I never knew about the snake, I would have spent all my time leaning another shot. Given the amount of time I have spent practicing my snake I would expect my other shot would be quite good too. 8)

People, learn to defend it! Just as it is unique to learn it is unique to defend against too, so many don’t know how. The information is out there…

I would love to see a few rollerball events, (perhaps someone could even do an elo rolerball ranking too).
Philo

User avatar
JT
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:03 pm
Real Name: James Tucker
Location: Wimbledon

Post by JT » Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:13 am

If the snake was banned, I think many snake shooters would start shooting the front pin in tournaments. Would this be any less boring than the snake, and if so, why?

Phil Williams
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:36 am
Real Name: Phil Williams
Location: Southampton

Snake

Post by Phil Williams » Wed Jul 28, 2004 10:29 am

The snake shot is NOT going to get banned. NUFF Said

You should be practising trying to defent it instead of writing on here about why you think it should be banned.

User avatar
Pete
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:32 pm
Real Name: Pete Ganderton
Location: Reading
Contact:

Post by Pete » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:05 am

If it wasn't for the snake I wouldn't be playing today...I played in the pub for a few years, and almost exclusively hacked, to the point where I would pass back to my 5-bar from the 3-bar. Through a general lack of co-ordination and left-handedness I couldn't (and still can't) really do anything with my 3-bar. I went to watch the Purple Turtle tournament in Reading in 2002 and saw people shooting the snake, and saw that as a shot that I could learn without the timing issue I currently suffered.

Bought a table, learnt the snake (took me about a month to learn the push, still learning the pull). Once I had a percentage shot I had a reason to learn to pass, so I bit the bullet and started to work on not hacking from the 5-bar. Now I'm starting to work on a pin shot...Having the snake meant I could goto a tournament and not embarrass myself. Its not an amazing snake shot I have, but its long one way, fast and accurate. It can be used across tables (though as I found last night its pants on a Tornado)

Most serious players have a shot they have put a lot of work into, be it pins, tap-bangs, pushes or pulls. Irrespective of what a player shoots if its practiced it will destroy a new player, there is no avoiding that. I could spend 3 months learning to serve in tennis and go on to own a normal person at tennis without actually being any good at the game, however as soon as a face a person who plays even casually my complete lack of game will be my ruin. A novice coming along with a snake shot will have put work into it, same as a novice turning up to a tournament with a fast tap-bang. Both shots may only go in a couple of places, but against un-prepared opposition it will be a game winner.

So in short I agree with Dave and Cotty...you can run tournments without it, but it shouldn't be ranking. The snake will bring new players in, its a gateway shot. It encourages practice and shot refinement, something vital for a player to improve.

Phil Williams
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:36 am
Real Name: Phil Williams
Location: Southampton

Snake

Post by Phil Williams » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:15 am

I say 'Ban Lucky Shots' The ones that go of all 4 walls, 3 men and then drop in. No one like's it when they go in, and the team that scored always apologise, if they were banned, both sides would be happy!!

User avatar
Black Cloud
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:04 pm
Real Name: Mike Pearce

Post by Black Cloud » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:51 am

I voted no. Although the question could have been phrased, should the snake been made legal. And following on from there - should the rollover have been allowed? The snake is a derivation from the rule change / relax / manipulation that allowed the front pin shooters many years ago to add the new 'spin' weapon to their armoury. The rules stated 360% and this allowed the introduction of the rollover thus greatly increasing the effectiveness of the front pin. I suggest that the balance of shot v. defender was about right before the rollover, and then the snake was introduced, but now the balance has been tilted further (too far?) in favour of the attacker.

Is there a contradiction in the way the 'sport' disallows spinning, and yet accomodates the snake?

I consider myself a competent defender, and have had plenty of experience against all manner of shots. Any good attacker will have an unreadable and unraceable shot, and the ploys of defending then come into play such as baiting and random. But there is (to me) something different about the snake. I don't know if it is harder to read, or pick up a sixth sense on than other shots, but it does seem to give average players a % score in excess of their expected ability were they to have put the same time into say the front pin/pull/etc.

This may be a good thing for the game. Learn the snake, score more and make the games quicker and more exciting (since scoring is everything.. and money through the table is important).

Before the snake people complained about the pull - boring, difficult to stop, the previous highest percentage shot. So maybe the moaning has always been there.

It may just be that I am being old fashioned and churlish about being beaten by this shot so apologies for that. And perhaps a little sadly, I am also learning a snake so I can compete more favourably at tournaments.

So I should have voted yes... er..

Footy
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 12:09 pm
Real Name: Shem E. op den Camp
Location: Geleen Netherlands

Re: Snake

Post by Footy » Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:05 pm

Phil Williams wrote:I say 'Ban Lucky Shots' The ones that go of all 4 walls, 3 men and then drop in. No one like's it when they go in, and the team that scored always apologise, if they were banned, both sides would be happy!!
Yes I apologize...with a BIG SMILE! Banning luckies is ridiculous, it's up to the goaly to keep the slug out.

As for the snake, this shot also has it's disadvantages, I'm trying to master it (after my "normal" frontpin has become fairly steady) but it's harder than expected. In other words: it's just a shot. The reason I'm trying to learn it is because we too have to learn how to block it (it's illegal in some Dutch and Belgium competitions).
Nuff said.

Craig
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:36 pm
Real Name: CF
Location: London

Post by Craig » Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:11 pm

jtucker wrote:If the snake was banned, I think many snake shooters would start shooting the front pin in tournaments. Would this be any less boring than the snake, and if so, why?
James,

Why do you think that if the snake was banned, snakers would migrate over to the front pin? There is only one similarity between the two shots - you start off by pinning the ball.

The front pin is a REALLY tough shot - the best one I've seen this year is Dave Morgan's, and he can only go one way!! :wink:


Oh, and yes, it would be less boring. With the snake, you can;

-shoot left
-shoot straight
-shoot right

Thats it.

With the front pin you can do all of those as well as walking the ball around, faking, creating gaps, and even switching quickly to other shots (because your hand is in a more natural position).

Craig
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:36 pm
Real Name: CF
Location: London

Post by Craig » Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:53 pm

Cotty wrote:Rich, I agree that the tournament organiser should have the right to specify what events and format they are to use. However to be a RANKING EVENT (bugger, Imanpoor syndrome) all the shots that players use must be an option. I have no problem with Bath holding an event and rules of their choosing, if it was non-ranking.
But, if it is a non-ranking event....

-Will the BFA get to hear about it or would they just run it themselves?
-Attendance would surely be lower.


I think it SHOULD be ranking. A player who calls himself (e.g.) "Pro" should be able to do more than one shot, and will do well in the tournament regardless. It would also give these Bath guys a national ranking which may encourage them to go to other tourneys (where the snake IS allowed). For example I think that (if we try) they could be convinced to go to blocky tourneys where the snake is not as prevalent. 20 or so people would be a valuable addition to our (very small) player base.

User avatar
Cotty
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:55 pm
Real Name: Matt Cotterill
Location: Leeds, Yorkshire

Post by Cotty » Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:10 pm

Yes Craig you make a very valid point. Introducing players to the game is the most important thing and I completely agree.

However not being able to use certain shots kinda makes the event a bit silly. As a compromise how about introducing a separate ranking for these events.

It would be great if there was another tour running along side the regular tour where players could swap and choose but have separate rankings for each. Unfortunately the same problems arise as to getting enough promoters/organisers to get this going. I believe however, that the 'certain shots don't count' type of tour will be thought of less than the regular tour, and as a result will get lower attendances.

Matt.
"A day without laughing is a day wasted"

User avatar
JT
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:03 pm
Real Name: James Tucker
Location: Wimbledon

Post by JT » Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:18 pm

I think the front pin does bear other similarities to the snake, especially when done open palm. I've been practising the open palm front pin a bit recently and I found it fairly easy to pick up having previously learnt the snake (on Tornado anyway). The lateral movement and recoil motions are similar and neither of them are "wrist" shots.

The snake can also be walked around, just watch some of the American players like Tony Spredeman. He uses fakes and walks to great effect. You may also have seen Philo doing this on Garlando. It takes more practice to learn to do this with a wrist grip, so it's arguably more skillfull than a walking front pin.

Locked