No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

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cbalife
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No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by cbalife » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:24 pm

What in essence would be wrong with these proposed changes to a tournament:

Have No Pro singles and Doubles where Novice, Amateur and Semi-Pro players can enter
Still keep Novice (beginner) events
Have Masters singles/doubles where Pro and PM can enter
Make Master's singles/doubles exclusive with Womens/Senior events (To stop horrendous overlaps)
No-Pro and Masters are exclusive to each other (if a SP or lower wants to enter Masters)

Obviously have OS, OD or whatever.

I'll sum up why I thought this might be worth doing:

Pro-masters get 2 more events, which PMs seem to want (I could be wrong?)
By merging Amateur and Semi-pro events there will be less events for amateur but there will be better formats and much more depth. It makes things a bit more focused and hopefully would make amateurs get a taste of higher level competition (against SPs) but not get completely screwed like they may do in Open events.
Personally I think being entered into two divisional events at once (except Novice and Amateur) is a bit too much, having No-Pro, Masters and Open would give more time for eating/resting

What are the problems with this? I can imagine maybe pro players would dislike playing against PM players and likewise Amateur not wanting to play Semi-Pro. However, I think this would just force people to up their game rather than staying in their comfort zone?

I'm not running a tournament or whatever, I'm just wondering if this has been done before. I remember at Oxford 2009 there was No-Pro?

tl;dr less is more


EDIT: Also, this isn't a dig at Liverpool nor am I trying to start an argument, I'm just wondering why this hasn't been done recently?

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:38 pm

Hmm...a semi-pro proposing events which are best for SP players, shocking :wink:

Masters singles/doubles have historically never been popular as they're just latter stage OS/OD mark 2. Just with shorter formats, which the better players tend not to like.

There are few limits to what an organisers could do with a schedule in order to get ranking status. I'd encourage organisers to try new things with their tournaments. We'd have a healthier tournament scene if more people thought "I'd like to see this in a tournament - I'll go make it happen". I'd love to see someone do something completely new and for it to turn out brilliantly.

I personally like Warwick 2013's schedule. Which is pretty much the same to Warwick 2012 and the UKC. I think it works well for both players and organisers fitting more of a 'standard' UK tournament model.

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by cbalife » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:52 pm

Actually, under this I wouldn't be very sure of whether to enter Masters or No-Pro I think; I always prefer playing in Pro Singles and Doubles to SP events, much like when I was Amateur I started to enter Semi-Pro. The idea behind this really is to get people playing out of their comfort zones a bit.

I'd equally be happy with seeing Semi-Pro and Pro events combined together and leaving Novice and Amateur events alone. I don't see 'that' huge a gap in quality from Semi-Pro and Pros, but maybe I'm blind :D. Is that what Warwick is doing this year?

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by Willy » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:21 pm

I think the difference in standard between Pros and PM's is generally quite large, and the same goes for the difference between Am's and SP's in general, whereas Nov/Am and SP/Pro is probably closer, so I think from that point of view it makes more sense to have Pro events and Am events rather than No-Pro/Masters.

Another possible consideration would be field size-prize pool ratio. No-pro would have a much bigger field than masters, and therefore logically should have a larger prizepool despite being a lower standard. So there would be a significant incentive for low pros to throw bonus points to enter the bigger event. Alternatively you give no-pro a smaller prizepool than masters, but that means entries from no-pro go towards subsidising an event that the people paying the fees aren't entering, which seems unfair.

Having said that I would still go to a tournament with no-pro/masters events, but I can see why they would appear less attractive to tournament organisers.

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by Boris » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:55 pm

I echo what has been said - we have run Masters either as PM only or as PM/Pro events before but the end up being Open lite and unattractive as the entry fee to prize fund ratio is poor, PM only would not attract players unless there is a decent guaranteed prize fund.

The same is true to a lesser extent for pro-only events, if there aren't the SPs to bulk up the prize fund it tends to be a small field with low payouts.

Semi-Pro/Pro is a much better mix exclusive with Novice/Amateur. There is not such an ability gap between pros and SPs.

Liverpool is structured in such a way as to provide Pros with 4x ranking events and SPs and below with 6x events, albeit with brutal formats for the divisional events - which is the necessary price to be paid. This was partially in response to the stasis in the rankings where divisional events were restricted to that division only, as there was no scope for movement with bonus points unless a lower-ranked player/team opted for the higher division instead of their own.

Total Payouts for Liverpool were as follows (no of entries/teams):
OS/OD - £1210 (73/42)
PS/PD - £330 (33/14)
SPS/SPD - £290 (41/20)
AS/AD - £115 (24/12)
Senior - £150 (15/7)
Womens - £70 (4/2 - Guaranteed first place only - exceeded entry fees)
Pro-Am - £100 (18)
Mixed - £30 (3 - Guaranteed first place only - exceeded entry fees)
2-ball/DYP/FSO/GW - £345 (16/24/15/11)

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by cbalife » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:57 pm

Yeah, maybe SP/Pro events merging would be a better solution, which had been done before a lot anyway (and Warwick will be doing with doubles?). I was mainly wondering why I haven't seen this events in a while ;).

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by Teeb » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:54 pm

Masters events have been run in the past but divide the pm's.

On one side are the pm's who see masters events as inferior versions of the later stages of open events with shorter formats and smaller prize money. On the other side is Nubbert.

IMO masters events do nothing to enhance any measurable success of a tournament.

Tom

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by Jonathan may » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:06 pm

The only point in masters events is if they are ultra-high stakes events. E.g. £100+ entry fees to each. Only the top X eligible to enter, etc.

Otherwise it's just crap.
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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by Mase » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:40 am

Jonathan May wrote:The only point in masters events is if they are ultra-high stakes events. E.g. £100+ entry fees to each. Only the top X eligible to enter, etc.

Otherwise it's just crap.
Completely agree with this, I'd like to see us try a Big Money Doubles event, it could be open or restricted but entry fees would probably limit the entrants to better players.

£150 a team.

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Re: No-Pro and Masters Singles/Doubles?

Post by cbalife » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:10 pm

High stake matches in a cage a la this ? :D

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