Liverpool Open 2012 - Discussion thread

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Sampson
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Sampson » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:10 am

Will anyone be selling wraps and balls?

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Rytis Mitkus » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:25 am

ill bring some masterwraps

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davez
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by davez » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:01 am

As a country, as a federation, as a community, as organisers, as players, we really have to properly prioritise and solve this perennial problem of events (and hence the tournament) not finishing on time.
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Bundy Volume 1
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:39 pm

I have stepped in as TD rather last minute (only confirmed Monday in the early hours when I was too tired to protest :wink: ) so I apologise if has been unclear who is running this tournament, and questions have gone answered, until now.

Looking at the schedule, I feel the events which run the greatest risk of having to over run until Sunday are SPS and Mixed. This does not say that they will though. I'll make a call on the day regarding formats to try to get all Saturday events finished on Saturday. Boris is yet to confirm the number of ITSF tables the tournament will have available, but it will be more than the BFA own, this should help. People must be prepared to play none-ITSF events on the 3x Rileys tables though (same as ITSF tables, but no goal posts). Protests over being called on these tables will only further delay the tournament. I am sorry, but it will not be able to be avoided. I will try to make sure people play an equal number of games of these tables.

I do empathise with people's frustrations at late finishing times. At a recent tournament I could not play in the event I was looking forward to the most, as I had not been called by 8pm Sunday when I had to leave. It is a problem with players demands for events. As a frequent TD, and occasional TO, I will always welcome schedule suggestions from players who feel they can find a balance between giving players a good number of games (not ITSF style where most people are done by lunch time, which is largely unpopular) and still having respectable finishing times. It's not easy. But we have made progress from stories I have been told of 5am Monday finishes, so I hope we can continue to move in the right direction here.

Joe.

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Boris
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Boris » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:39 pm

No one is officially selling wraps and balls, but I can confirm that the tournament will be run using ITSF Garlando High Control Kicker Balls as used at Nantes.

At present we have 12x ITSF tables confirmed for use in ITSF events plus 3x Rileys World Champions and 2x Olympic Silver tables for use in non-ITSF events. I am looking to source a further 3x ITSF tables (Master or World Champions) but cannot now guarantee this. If so it is likely that these would be sold on e-bay after the tournament, so if anyone can either lend a World Champion or Master Champion table or two, or would be interested in buying a table

Players drawn to play on a table have two options, play the game or forfeit the match, the only exception being where the table is damaged. The ITSF tables will only be used for non-ITSF events when there are no ITSF matches which can be called on them. However for Open Singles we reserve the right to call matches on non-ITSF tables where both players are of amateur rank or below, as no other events will be proceeding during the early stages of OS and the tables would otherwise go unused, delaying the tournament.

As for events finishing on Saturday, every attempt will be made to finish events on the day with priority given to the ITSF events, however it is possible that the later-starting events (2-ball, mixed and possibly SPS) might have the later stages (finals or possibly SFs) held over to Sunday if events overrun.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by davez » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:56 pm

I am sorry to be negative, but the idea that you can or will 'prioritise ITSF events' is a complete joke, because it is already abundantly clear that ITSF events have already NOT been prioritised.

This is obvious from the schedule.

If priority were being given to ITSF events then you would NOT schedule Womens Doubles, Senior Singles and Senior Doubles on Sunday afternoon, all of which are running AFTER Pro Singles, Amateur Singles, Novice Doubles, Semi-Pro Doubles, Novice Singles, Semi-Pro Singles, 2-Ball Rollerball, Mixed Doubles, Pro Doubles, Amateur Doubles and Masters Singles.

Similarly for Open Doubles. This is the premier ITSF event and main reason that travelling Europeans are attending this tournament, because it is an ITSF *MASTER SERIES* tournament. They will be keen to complete OD early so they can go home, but OD does not start until 11am on Sunday (who thinks it will start on time?), and also defers to all of: Pro Singles, Amateur Singles, Novice Doubles, Semi-Pro Doubles, Novice Singles, Semi-Pro Singles, 2-Ball Rollerball, Mixed Doubles.

And moreover, events don't start until 11am each morning. 11am!!! That's basically lunchtime.

I feel a sense of desparation! Why does it have to be like this??
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by cmau » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:53 pm

I forsee that allowing Ams to play both AM/SP events and SPs to play SP/P events along with ITSF events may be a bit too ambitious and will lead to very large delays, I am all in favour for more events (well done Boris) but possibly with a more flexible tournament structure...

While nobody is forcing anyone to play in events, it costs almost $80 for your average semi-pro male, middle-aged player (Seniors and Women pay close to $100) to play in all his events which is a very steep increase from the average tournament entry fees from last year. SPs and above don't even have a package deal. :(

Just my 2 cents.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by davez » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:22 pm

You can probably tell that I'm actually pretty upset by this, but I am aware that I haven't made any positive suggestions, at least with respect to this tournament.

So I will make a suggestion: Why not start the Senior and Womens events at 9am on Saturday and 9am on Sunday? Now you suddenly have 4 more hours to run these events and your schedule gets much more manageable.

I don't think that a Master Series schedule should be distorted to cater for those who wish to drink all night and then get up late. In Nantes the doors opened at 8am for a 9am start. As the women and seniors are probably the least likely to abuse alcohol this might work for them.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Bundy Volume 1
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:41 pm

davez wrote:I don't think that a Master Series schedule should be distorted to cater for those who wish to drink all night and then get up late. In Nantes the doors opened at 8am for a 9am start. As the women and seniors are probably the least likely to abuse alcohol this might work for them.
Obviously this a TO issue, so the decisions will be up to Boris, but I believe the 11am start times are to do with venue opening hours rather than letter those of us who go out until the early hours have a lie in.

I agree that, if possible, starting as early as possible will be a good call.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by *mayya* » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:01 pm

Wait wait wait waaaaiiiiittttttt...

I was about to chime in with a 'I totally agree with Dave', but 9am is a little bit too harsh :). 10am is cool, but perhaps better for the non-ITSF events like PD or SPD?

Also I see no point in allowing SPs to play Pro-events.. or AMs to play SP events - what's the point of re-creating loads of little mini-OD events?


**EDIT: (Apart from the 9am thing) Dave is totally right - Particularly coming back from Nantes, where games are run on a minute-by-minute basis, if we want to have this ITSF Masters Series, we should do more for timing. Starting all events at 10am etc.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by davez » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:26 pm

Look, I also HATE the idea of playing competitive foos at 9am without practice. But the logic dictates that someone has to, and I wanted to make a suggestion that was to some degree self sacrificing. Going on history we'll be lucky if the venue is open by 10am.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Rytis Mitkus » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:01 pm

i know my opinion is the last in line, but we have had tournaments start at 9am. it was late at least 30 mins all the time. now we start at 10-10:30 am, with 12:00 qualifications. people warms up before important events, and there is not so much conficts between events. also everything depends on players do they start their games immediately or they 'go for a smoke before game'.

hope you understood what i meant to say:)

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by davez » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:07 pm

Hi Rytis, your opinion is not last in line, you are the travelling player that a Master Series tournament attracts, and your opinion is important.

Yes it would be lovely to have warm up time and then qualification like you guys do. But this tournament probably has more events than yours, and many of these events are double elimination.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Rytis Mitkus » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:34 pm

the point i wanted to say, is that it makes sence to start events at 10am, like seniors, women etc, and then at 11am OS or OD. or at 10am some category events

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Bundy Volume 1
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:38 pm

If everyone fully pre-registered then delays will be reduced, and all events will start bang on time.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Mase » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:44 pm

Hi Joe/Boris,

I think the answer should be ranking events are rank restricted. Whatever you rank is where you play. I always do this and it helps it run quicker and allow you to have slightly longer formats for higher ranked players.

Events should start at 10am. If this is all done I see now issue with timings. (I assume events are called in right order [Joe knows how to do this done it 100's of times] and that formats are not stupidly long). Also worth being super strict with recals, 3 min first recal, 6 mins second 9 mins 1st game 12 mins second game.

This will get things moving.

Regards,

Ben

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Happyham
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Happyham » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:29 pm

Slight side note:

Once again, another tournament announcement lost in the pages of discussion that follow. I think for everyone's sake, but most importantly for new players who visit this website, there should be a tournament announcement post made with a link to a discussion page in table football chat. This post should then be blocked to show only information regarding the tournament! UK tournaments section seriously lacks presentation in my opinion.

Mods delete this as soon as you've read it. Please consider the idea though!
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Boris
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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Boris » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:34 pm

Mase - I feel it is very important that divisional events don't end up as backwaters, and are actually competitive. Having players restricted to their own rank means that no bonus points are ever at stake so new players only get a chance to shoot up the rankings by beating higher ranked players in opens. This is one reason why there has been so little movement in recent years beyond the yo-yo players around the ranking boundaries. Also the prize fund in a pro-event where a number of SPs enter will be much higher than the small events which have included pros alone, ditto for semi-pro allowing the amateurs in.

It is a risk to the schedule but a risk worth taking.

Definitely strict enforcement of the recall procedures.

Players who have pre-registered will be entered in their first event but will not be entered into subsequent events unless they have either arrived or advised of their imminent arrival. If you have pre-registered and provided ALL your details you will not be required to fill out a paper form as well.

All players must pay their entry fees promptly and may be forfeited from events in the case of non-payment.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by Mase » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:30 pm

is it a risk worth taking if you annoy people who do not attend due to continual over runs.

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Re: Liverpool Open 2012 - Announcement

Post by davez » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:35 am

Boris is effectively saying that a cause of tournament overrun is the desire to support a ranking system which is anyway defective. I had never realised this before. This is a no brainer. Mase has totally hit one of the nails on the head. Don't let players uprank. Players get experience against better opponents by entering the Open events.

So we do we have some positive suggestions:
* start earlier, trainig 9am, start 10am
* no upranking
* strict recall
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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