Vote - How to allocate POY points?

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Boris
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Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by Boris » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:15 pm

As the committee is currently deadlocked, this question is now being put to the membership.

Please vote option A or B by indicating your preference in this thread.

Option A
- Raw points will be used according to finishing position and number of entrants using the standard points distribution

Option B - Points will be recalculated to exclude the finishing positions of all foreign players and the points awarded according to the revised positions and number of entrants.


The system used since 2007 has been option B

Example - 14x players including 3x foreigners

Actual Pos - Player - Revised Pos - A points - B Points
1 - Brit 1 - 1 - 50 - 45
2 - Forgnr1 - n/a - 0 - 0
3 - Forgnr2 - n/a - 0 - 0
4 - Brit 2 - 2nd - 23 - 35
5 - Brit 3 - 3rd - 18 - 25
5 - Brit 4 - 3rd - 18 - 25
7 - Forgnr3 - n/a - 0 - 0
7 - Brit 5 - 5th - 13 - 13
9/12 - Brits 6/9 - 6th - 8 - 10
13/14 - Brits 10/11 - 10th - 4 - 3

Deadline for voting is 6pm on Friday 14th January 2011

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:23 pm

I'm struggling with this. Because of the committee deadlock, and because it seems to me to be a no brainer that the finishing position of a foreign player should not impact a UK player's POY standing, I suspect that I must be missing some implication of this position, and would therefore appreciate a brief summary of what the pros and cons are. Thanks.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:49 pm

[quote="Boris"]As the committee is currently deadlocked, this question is now being put to the membership.[/quote]
Please will Dermot read out the results in no particular order? I'm currently thinking about which committee member corresponds to each X-factor judge...

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by leaks » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:07 am

I've got to go with A I think - it's representative of where the individual finished, not matter whether other players were GB or not.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:35 am

But you didn't say the reason WHY you think it's important for the system to be representative of non-GB players.

I didn't think POY was intended to represent non-GB players, I thought the primary purpose was to rank those players eligible to represent GB abroad.

If this is the case then a player who is ineligible to represent the UK shouldn't attract points under this system, and shouldn't perturb the rankings of those who are.

The reason is that the ineligible players push some eligible players out of the points, and therefore remove information about their performance relative to other eligible players.

We can construct a theoretical example to demonstrate this. Imagine it's the last tourney of the year and two equally good GB players have equal POY points and are both borderline for qualification. One is drawn against Jamal Allalou (who happens to turn up) and the other is not.

Why would the BFA committee want to expose itself to the subsequent (reasonable) complaint when it's quite unnecessary?

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by Chris H » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:26 pm

Option B.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by leaks » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:13 pm

My reasoning was that I was drunk. I hope that's enough to convince you Dave.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by richmarsh » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:40 pm

B seems more sensible to me.

Is it not worth hearing the arguments for each side though before everyone chooses?

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by leaks » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:20 pm

Ok - my thinking with A was that if (I assume this is true) there a greater points to be had for doing well in a large tournament than a smaller one, then taking out foreign players reduces the size of the tournament, and thus the reward for doing well. Another theoretical example: If someone went and won a tournament with 200 attending but 180 of those were foreign players (ridiculous exaggeration of numbers I know, but it's just to illustrate the point) and someone else won a tournie with 20 attending who were all GB players, do you think they should get the same points? Should someone who came 100th in the first tournament get the same points as someone coming 10th in the second?
Is it right that if player 1 comes 1st and player 2 comes 20th with 18 foreign players between them that player 2 gets almost as many points as player 1? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not sure what the Jamal example has to do with anything - I think you've just picked a tough foreign player that makes it seem unfair on the 2nd player to justify the argument. What if it wasn't Jamal - what if it was a n00by foreign player turning up to their first tournie and the other player had to play a tough GB player? player 1 beats the n00b and player 2 loses to the GB player - does player 2 have grounds for complaint because player 1 got further by beating a non-GB player? I don't think the BFA should have to consider complaints of that kind - it's luck of the draw who you play, GB or not.

The idea isn't that the POY should represent non-GB players, it's that I think it should represent the actual results of the GB players, not their results with players in between taken out that might make it seem they did better than they actually did!

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:17 pm

OK Oli, thanks for the reasoning. So the larger tournament size attracts more points and makes it all fair again. OK, I see the argument.

On the Jamal example I actually meant to edit my post because I think I said slightly the wrong thing. It's not so much about who he beats really but where he ends up in the ranking and whether he displaces anyone.

Actually why couldn't I edit my post, you normally can?

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by leaks » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:24 pm

I don't think posts can be edited in the "Announcements and Important Information" forum. No worries on the Jamal thing, maybe my post sounded more harsh than intended - I also couldn't edit after and had forgotten about that :)

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by Mike A » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:09 pm

Option A.

I agree with Oli.

Taking account of foreigner's performances is relevant to UK POY. It differentiates between those who do well when foreigners are present and those who don't do so well.
Also, this will still allow the POY to reflect relative UK player finishing positions in tournaments.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:12 pm

Mike, that's the first persuasive argument I've heard. We all play each other endlessly in UK tournaments, and yet the POY is used to select people to play foreigners. So, it makes complete sense to 'select' for this skill where possible, provided that the points go deep enough to avoid the 'information loss' issue.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:15 pm

...in fact this argument is so persuasive that it makes me want to reconsider my earlier opinion on whether tournaments abroad should count towards POY.

It turns out that these issues are linked and so should be considered together.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:56 pm

Whether a UK player is 'better' against foreign players is completely irrelevant in a POY argument, with what POY's current purpose is in the UK.

Our POY is simply for UKC qualification, and now we have on-the-day qualification stages, it could be said it's mainly for seeding.

It doesn't matter if a UK player could beat all the foreign opposition put in front of them, if they can't beat the UK players at the UKC then they're not going to qualify for the world champs.

So as far as I can see it, there remains one main argument for each side.

If a UK player A finished 1st in an OS, and the next UK placing, player B, was 5th then you should feel that player A should get suitably more POY points than B. In the current system of POY player B would gain the POY for finishing 2nd, not 5th, thus would get a points total much closer to player A's. This could be seen as player A's performance, finishing much higher than other UK players, not being credited enough.

The counter is that when you consider the POY is solely for the UKC, it should only concern how the UK players have competed against each other for the year. It is perfectly possible for a player to repeatedly meet foreign players in OS draws due to how we seed because of their BFA ranking and how we rank foreign players. It is far from a full gone conclusion who will qualify from the UKC, so it could be said your seeding position is of great importance. The debate we've had from players over the years proves that it is to them.
Now if this UK player keeps getting drawn against foreign players, and knocked out earlier than they would were they to face UK opposition (this assumes they are better playing against the players they 'know', which is very true for some), is it fair for them to have less POY and thus a worse seeding position for the UKC? On this point you really must focus on the fact the the UKC is just about UK players.

Hopefully people can follow what I'm saying there.

Personally I'd be happy with things kept as they are. What Dave says is very much true, so many issues are linked. With the public vote being greatly in favour of our world champs players being selected through UKC only, then keeping things as they are can be considered the best way to go. Were this POY issue be changed, then we would have to consider changing that, and possibly which tournaments you can gain POY in. There are more to follow too.

Our system all works together, so think things should be kept the same.

(This is not a definitive list of pros and cons, it's just my opinions)

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:27 pm

It's odd that we have to work so hard to tease out the core issues when they were presumably identified by the committee, and could have been neatly summarised with the voting request.

Joe, there were two new things that I got from your post:
1) confirmation that POY is solely for UKC
2) the idea that POY ranking is used to seed the UKC, and hence that including foreign players will impact their UKC seeding

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by davez » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:35 pm

[quote="Evertonian"]It doesn't matter if a UK player could beat all the foreign opposition put in front of them, if they can't beat the UK players at the UKC then they're not going to qualify for the world champs. [/quote]
I'm not sure I get this. The confounding factor is foreigners who are much better than our people, not foreigners in general. Therefore if someone is consistently beating the good foreigners, then they will do well at UKC too.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:58 pm

davez wrote:Therefore if someone is consistently beating the good foreigners, then they will do well at UKC too.
That is an assumption Dave.
You ideally summarised my main 2 points, and when you think about those, it means that you can't make your assumption to use this as a strong argument in favour of including foreign players in POY.

It is perfectly possible for players to do much better/worse against players that do not know their game. Which could effect POY placings (UKC Seeding)/UKC placing with changes to our POY system.

Anyway, this should be enough debate. I don't want us to argue points forever. The most important thing out of this is for people to vote and give their opinions, and I can see that point being lost here. This is another important vote which the committee will greatly take into consideration, so hearing the opinions of the players is essential.

(P.S - loving the fact that I seem to be able to edit and 'properly' quote, which others seem to be prevented from doing :lol: )

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by Mike A » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:02 pm

Evertonian wrote:It doesn't matter if a UK player could beat all the foreign opposition put in front of them, if they can't beat the UK players at the UKC then they're not going to qualify for the world champs.
This is a real shame and a major drawback of our selection process.

On the subject of POY, in my opinion your ability and record in defeating foreign opposition is part of your overall ranking. If you can do this while other UK players cannot, it separates you from the UK pack. Failing to recognise this means our POY only records half the story, and unfortunately, it is the insestuous UK player base side of the story.

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Re: Vote - How to allocate POY points?

Post by Christopher Lyall » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:37 pm

Since when is the aim of our selection of National Champion and Wild Card based on who would do best at the World Championships? If you're selecting the best from a closed pool of players then it makes sense to only test them by their performance against each other.

And why is there so much insistence on treating foreign players as some sort of exotic novelty, where beating them is a separate skill entirely from beating UK players? It's not the case. Playing on unfamiliar tables, or equipment and with unfamiliar rules maybe, but it's not as though the regional playing styles in different countries are that diverse. And even if they were, since when do we have the luxury of having enough foreign players travelling to play here to make any sort of statistically significant comparison of skill with them? I could count the number of foreign players I've played at UK tournaments this year on two hands; if I happened to do well or badly against that particular bunch - probably 60% Polish and Hungarian - would it really give any indication as to how well I'd play against Japanese players, or any other nationality out of the 30 or so that I'm as likely to play as the Polish if I went to the World Champs? I don't believe that performance against the few foreign players at UK tournaments is a very useful as an indicator at all of a more general likelihood of performing well at the World Champs, and that's accepting that beating foreign players is an entirely different skill, which I don't believe.

From what other experienced players have told me, and from my own experiences, I believe that playing in international competition does require a firmer grip on the game and stronger mental ability in handling pressure, which you could more comfortably label as a whole new set of skills that some good UK players have and some don't. If Mike were talking about this, playing under the greater pressure, rather than just playing foreign players, then I'd agree with what he says. But at UK tournaments playing a foreign player does not equate to playing under greater pressure, whereas it obviously does in international competition, which I would suggest is possibly where some crossed streams have leaked in. UK players travelling abroad gives a good indicator of their likely performance at the World Champs, their performance against foreign players in UK tournaments doesn't.

Tbh though even having said all this I don't know whick of Boris' suggestions really corresponds to the points I'm making. Instinct says though that if the automatic UKC qualification will sink below podium-finishing foreigners then so should the POY points, but it's quite a technical distinction. I think passing this issue onto the Britfoos community as a whole was a mistake and that the committee should just man up and make a decision. I mean, don't get me wrong, it gives me and DZ loads of opportunity to practice our debating skills which I appreciate, but at the end of the day you won't get a solid answer, just a lot of waffle. Like this. It's not even as though this is an urgent or important issue.

Chris x

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