Table Returns

Foosball chat / key issues and discussion
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shovie
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by shovie » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:24 pm

My involvement in the UKC finished at about 10:30pm on Sunday. Sorry.

Alex

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Catherine
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:25 pm

Ok Cool. Any idea who can help then pls? lol
LLAB

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shovie
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by shovie » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:27 pm

If your neck is particularly bad a surgeon, failing that a chiropractor might be able to help you.

And apparently the lovely John Blanchard.

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Catherine
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:39 pm

Yes hilar!

lol

...as ya know John B would need someone else too.

sensible suggestions por favor?
LLAB

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shovie
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by shovie » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:41 pm

You.

Done.

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Catherine
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:52 pm

As you know I can't.

Ok, yer obviously not in the mood to help or suggest apart from things you know won't happen.

No worries.
LLAB

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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by shovie » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:32 pm

Perhaps you could find a friend to help John so you could take up his kind offer? That seems perfectly sensible to me.

Alex

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davez
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by davez » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:41 pm

This has gone on long enough.

Responsibility for table return resides and remains with the BFA Committee.

Requests for committee assistance should no longer be ignored or trivialised.

Ths current situation is that:
a) The table is (presumably) still in storage at the Hawkwell Hotel (one week after the UKC)
b) There has been no visible committee activity regarding table return
c) John Blanchard has kindly agreed to pick it up and deliver it to Cath's house on Tuesday

Please can someone in the BFA Committee take the following actions today:
1) Authorise John to collect the table on their behalf OR make alternative arrangements for Tuesday delivery
2) Contact the hotel and confirm that they still have the table
3) Confirm with the hotel that it can be collected on Tuesday
4) Advise the hotel that John is authorised to collect the table

The BFA Committee remain accountable for any damage caused during transit, NOT John. He plans to move the table single-handedly using a sack truck, something he has done before. It would be in the committee interest to ensure John has assistance.

Thanks very much.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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davez
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by davez » Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:03 pm

I meant to add that I intend to design and implement a "table transfer" form, which will include pickup and return dates/times, to be completed and signed by the concerned parties, to ensure that this ever happens again. I'll post it here soon.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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davez
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by davez » Sat Oct 17, 2009 3:04 pm

Table Provider Agreement

This constitutes an agreement between the British Foosball Association (BFA) and a named Table Provider for the provision, collection and return of one or more foosball tables.

Tables
Number of Tables:
Table Type:
Additional Items:

Collection
Collection transport mode:
Collection Date and Time:
Collection Address:
Collection site contact name:
Collection site contact number:
Collector contact names:
Collector contact numbers:

Destination
Destination Address:
Destination contact number:

Return
Return transport mode:
Return Date and Time:
Return Address:
Return site contact name:
Return site contact number:
Returner contact names:
Returner contact numbers:

Agreement
Agreed on Behalf of the BFA:
Agreed on behalf of the Table Provider:
Loan Conditions Agreed:
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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davez
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by davez » Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:47 pm

davez wrote:This has gone on long enough.

Responsibility for table return resides and remains with the BFA Committee.

Requests for committee assistance should no longer be ignored or trivialised.

Ths current situation is that:
a) The table is (presumably) still in storage at the Hawkwell Hotel (one week after the UKC)
b) There has been no visible committee activity regarding table return
c) John Blanchard has kindly agreed to pick it up and deliver it to Cath's house on Tuesday

Please can someone in the BFA Committee take the following actions today:
1) Authorise John to collect the table on their behalf OR make alternative arrangements for Tuesday delivery
2) Contact the hotel and confirm that they still have the table
3) Confirm with the hotel that it can be collected on Tuesday
4) Advise the hotel that John is authorised to collect the table

The BFA Committee remain accountable for any damage caused during transit, NOT John. He plans to move the table single-handedly using a sack truck, something he has done before. It would be in the committee interest to ensure John has assistance.

Thanks very much.
Please could someone on the BFA Committee PM me today and let me know what's happening with regard to the 4 points above?

Thanks very much...
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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davez
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by davez » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:25 pm

Joe, thank you very much indeed for progressing things with the hotel, points 2, 3 and 4 are done.

Boris or other committee member, please can you confirm today that it's OK for John to pick up the table tomorrow, and that he's covered in the case of any accidental damage?

Thanks for helping to resolve this finally...
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Boris
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Boris » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:47 pm

Cath

Nowhere in any of the written agreements was it stipulated that the table could not be returned Sunday. As has been stated elsewhere we asked for the key to your back gate which we would have put through your letter box when the table was returned, we had a sack-truck available to do the job and we would have set the table back up for you. Your refusal to comply with the written terms of the contract has therefore breached its terms and the BFA will not be held liable for any loss or damage in transit (no damage had been caused during the tournament or break-down), nor will we pay any additional costs incurred as a result of your selfish and unreasonable attitude.
I UNILATERALLY confirmed to you on Sunday, when you mentioned it, that the table could not go back to my house that day.
Precisely my point - that was the first I had heard of it. If I had known in advance that these were your terms we would have cancelled Bonzini at the UKC and Joe and I would not have to have had to carry my Bonzini down and up 5x flights of stairs.

John Blanchard has kindly offered to return your table for you, apparently it has recently been confirmed that the table is where we left it (in the room next to the tournament room where the boxes were stored). John says he has a trolley to shift it, if not the Hotel has a sack-truck which if they were asked nicely I'm sure they would lend him for half an hour or so. All the second person would have to do is keep the table aligned properly so it stays on the trolley, the wheels take the weight.

If you are waiting for the BFA to bail you out on this you will have a VERY long wait.

All comments on this issue will be moderated and removed from this public thread as soon as the table is returned, or after 48hours, whichever is the sooner.

How did your gig go, as a matter of interest?

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davez
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by davez » Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:57 pm

Boris wrote:nor will we pay any additional costs incurred as a result of your selfish and unreasonable attitude.
That the BFA Chairman should accuse a member of being selfish and unreasonable would be inappropriate even if it were true. However it is untrue.

The fact that Cath wanted the table back after Sunday cannot feasibly be described as either selfish or unreasonable. Note that the Tornado tables were stored at the hotel overnight and collected on Monday. Was that selfish or unreasonable?

No. The problem was that Cath's requirement was not effectively communicated, and worse, no pickup date or time was agreed. We all share some responsibility for that, but the root cause is the absence of a process (which can only be owned by the BFA) to ensure the capture of the details in advance. Assumptions were then made about the return date.
Boris wrote:Nowhere in any of the written agreements was it stipulated that the table could not be returned Sunday.
Nor on any other day! The phrase "Nowhere in any of the written agreements" is misleading because it implies a degree of organisation which was absent. There was only ONE written document, and it was the one that I wrote. And it only included terms for table provision and did not cover logistics such as pick up or collection.
Boris wrote:Your refusal to comply with the written terms of the contract has therefore breached its terms
An indefensible assertion. The written agreement didn't cover table collection, so there's nothing to comply with there.
Boris wrote:the BFA will not be held liable for any loss or damage in transit
It does however contain the phrases "You will provide appropriate care and attention during transport and use" and "You confirm that any damage to the table will be repaired at your cost".
Boris wrote:If I had known in advance that these were your terms we would have cancelled Bonzini at the UKC and Joe and I would not have to have had to carry my Bonzini down and up 5x flights of stairs.
It's unreasonable to claim that a detail like return date would determine whether or not a table appears at the UKC. The factors leading to Bonzini appearing at the UKC stretched back further than one day, and were more strategic that this implies. However, if the return date was indeed so critical, then that underlines the importance of agreeing it.

I'm sorry you had a trial with your table. But you added in the 2nd table because more people than expected picked Bonzini.
Boris wrote:If you are waiting for the BFA to bail you out on this you will have a VERY long wait.
The only bailing out happening here is John Blanchard bailing out the BFA committee!

I was surrpised by your response Boris, because your PM was so reasonable.

I'm sure it will all be fine.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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davez
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by davez » Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:47 am

Boris wrote:...the BFA will not be held liable for any loss or damage in transit (no damage had been caused during the tournament or break-down)...
This statement has been weighing on me overnight.

Neither Cath nor myself were present at the venue at the end of the tournament. Neither of us made a table inspection at that time, or earlier during the tournament, as we obviously expected to do this upon return.

The statement above appears to say that you aren't responsible for any damage caused prior to collection OR after collection, neither of which is acceptable.

The only point at which an assessment can be made is when the table is returned. The BFA Committee remains responsible for the safety of the table, and for any damage that occurs until that time.

There will be no frivolous damage claims I assure you. Any significant issues will be supported by before & after photographs.

Boris, I thought that your leadership and pragmatism would prevail upon your return. Instead you are forcing us all deeper into conflict.

It's time for the committee members to put personal issues aside and do the right thing.

thanks.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Catherine
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Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:10 am

Boris wrote:Cath

Nowhere in any of the written agreements was it stipulated that the table could not be returned Sunday. As has been stated elsewhere we asked for the key to your back gate which we would have put through your letter box when the table was returned, we had a sack-truck available to do the job and we would have set the table back up for you. Your refusal to comply with the written terms of the contract has therefore breached its terms and the BFA will not be held liable for any loss or damage in transit (no damage had been caused during the tournament or break-down), nor will we pay any additional costs incurred as a result of your selfish and unreasonable attitude.
I UNILATERALLY confirmed to you on Sunday, when you mentioned it, that the table could not go back to my house that day.
Precisely my point - that was the first I had heard of it. If I had known in advance that these were your terms we would have cancelled Bonzini at the UKC and Joe and I would not have to have had to carry my Bonzini down and up 5x flights of stairs.

John Blanchard has kindly offered to return your table for you, apparently it has recently been confirmed that the table is where we left it (in the room next to the tournament room where the boxes were stored). John says he has a trolley to shift it, if not the Hotel has a sack-truck which if they were asked nicely I'm sure they would lend him for half an hour or so. All the second person would have to do is keep the table aligned properly so it stays on the trolley, the wheels take the weight.

If you are waiting for the BFA to bail you out on this you will have a VERY long wait.

All comments on this issue will be moderated and removed from this public thread as soon as the table is returned, or after 48hours, whichever is the sooner.

How did your gig go, as a matter of interest?
Hi

I thought the title 'table returns' was too funny so I changed it to 'table non returns'.

Boris - I can see from your post that you are used to trying to fight your way out of corners!

It would be much bigger to simply apologise, say thanks for the table lend, and do all you can to get this resolved without anymore bad feeling.

It was not on the written document that the table could not be returned on Sunday. It was on the phone that Dave Z said that to you, prior to the tournament - are you saying that he is lying? He is in fact one of the most honourable people I know.

Instead...
1. You state that you now refuse to be responsible for damage during return transit.
You also state that the there has been no damage to the table in the tournament or during breakdown - I assume you also mean during transportation to the venue. This has not been confirmed as neither myself or DZ have had a chance to inspect the table since you transported it to the venue. I'll add that you were not in a position to inspect the table when you arrived at my house as you turned up late and in the dark so I don't see how you could possibly know the condition of the table pre-pick up and therefore have anything to compare it's present state too.
I'll inspect the condition and compare to the photos that we took and I'll let you know if there are any damages to pay - including any potential damages in transit on the return journey and set up.

2. You also said..
As has been stated elsewhere we asked for the key to your back gate which we would have put through your letter box when the table was returned, we had a sack-truck available to do the job and we would have set the table back up for you.

You don't seem to get it. I'll make it clearer. I could not have any disturbances on Sunday. I was rehearsing at my house. We were recording. You would have had to disturb me to get the key for the foozball room and it's impossible to get onto my property without the dog barking and disturbing us. In addition, you would have needed my back gate code, and I do not give this out!

3. You have now said to Dave Z that you have a mind to be so vicious to me that I leave the game.
What a horrible thing to say both on a personal level and as BFA Chairman. I'll leave the game at a time of my own choice and not because of threats from you. I still play fooz and will continue to do so.

Cath
LLAB

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davez
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Re: Table Returns

Post by davez » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:47 am

Table returned thanks to John. Thank you very much John. Before photos on flickr.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Messiah
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Re: Table Returns

Post by Messiah » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:12 pm

could I just say 1 million thaks to John Blanchard.

If only we could all be like him....
Still going....

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Re: Table Returns

Post by davez » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:18 pm

I asked for the core posts in the "Table Returns" thread to be restored so that further posts can be added to it.

Cath says there is damage to the table, and a number of balls are missing.

She says she will produce supporting descriptions and photographs next week. I will post the information here.

thanks,

Dave
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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leaks
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Re: Table Returns

Post by leaks » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:26 pm

Please don't - it's a matter for Cath and the BFA (whoever that is) to sort out. I doubt anyone else on here wants to read that information.

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