Table Returns

Foosball chat / key issues and discussion
User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Table Returns

Post by Catherine » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:18 pm

Gipsy Beast wrote:Well done to the BFA for managing a logistical nightmare in bringing so many tables to the venue!
...And on that note, please could I have my Bonzini table back!!!

Pls let me know in advance - last minute arrangements aren't helpful.

I don't mind waiting another day or so, but the table was only hired from Friday till Monday so soon would be good!

Thanks - my phone is stuck in a post office in Oxford - so internet is the only way to get in touch with me at present. Or you can ask DZ for my landline.

Cheers, Cath
Last edited by Catherine on Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
LLAB

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:03 pm

Got my phone now :)

JP - i have your coat by the way - you left it at my house - plus your winning bonzo handle! :)
LLAB

User avatar
Boris
BFA Treasurer
Posts: 9447
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:15 pm
Real Name: Boris Atha
Location: Liverpool
Contact:

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Boris » Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:57 pm

Cath - your Bonzini is in the store-room next to the tournament room ready for you to collect it. I've been through all the paperwork and, as you know, we were prepared to return it on Sunday but you unilaterally changed the arrangements at the last minute. It will fit in the back of a standard-sized hatchback. It is now your responsibility to get it home.

User avatar
The Duke
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:51 am
Real Name: John Blanchard
Location: Oxford

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by The Duke » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:01 pm

cath and boris,

in the interest of foos harmony everywhere I am happy to help load the table if you need help cath.
can provide a car too if needed
i'm around wed/thur day at certain times

john

User avatar
tom_k
Site Administrator
Posts: 854
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:32 am
Real Name: Tom King
Location: Oxford

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by tom_k » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:14 pm

The Duke wrote:cath and boris,

in the interest of foos harmony everywhere I am happy to help load the table if you need help cath.
can provide a car too if needed
i'm around wed/thur day at certain times

john
The world needs more of this type of attitude :)

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:23 am

John B

Thanks for your niceness.

The problem that needs to be thought about is that it'll need 2 people to move the table, and it also involves taking it around the back of my house and taking the stuff out of the shed, putting the table back in and then putting the stuff back...so it's a bit involved!

If you know someone else to help then that's great, but I don't feel like I want to ask you to do all this because it doesn't seem fair on you - and is probably more involved that you originally thought. if you don't want to do this then fair enough...it's the tournie organisers or BFA's (whichever one) responsbility to bring the table back.

Anyway...thanks!

Cath x
LLAB

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:47 pm

Boris wrote:Cath - your Bonzini is in the store-room next to the tournament room ready for you to collect it. I've been through all the paperwork and, as you know, we were prepared to return it on Sunday but you unilaterally changed the arrangements at the last minute. It will fit in the back of a standard-sized hatchback. It is now your responsibility to get it home.
This is written to Boris - though due to his complete and utter lack of ability to get a handle on things, I may need to ask other tournament organiser people to help in getting this sorted out! Thanks!

Boris. I can't quite believe that I'm having to write this to you - except that I can, because it is YOU.

You knew when you wrote that post above that it would be completely unacceptable to me. I already told you on Sunday that it is not my responsibility to return my table that YOU BORROWED. Besides that SHOULD be completely obvious to you.

It was your tournament, I didn't even play in it, and I VERY KINDLY lent you my table. To suggest that I now have to have the hassle and expense of getting my table back is ludicrous and unfair.

I UNILATERALLY confirmed to you on Sunday, when you mentioned it, that the table could not go back to my house that day.

One of the conditions of borrowing the table was that there was no access to my property on the Sunday. As you know I was working most of that day, had a rehearsal at my house, and was playing in my first gig that evening.

As a performer you should be aware that a peformer needs to be 100% focused and block out any external forces or pressures leading up to a performance.

Dave Zee told you prior to the tournament that the table could not be returned on Sunday. You have since said to me that that is not true.

Um...who to believe?

I did not particularly WANT to lend my table to the tournament. I have seen how tables get damaged and scrapped in transportation, it's a special edition table, plus I did not want to have to get involved with people such as yourself who are disorganised and last minute.

Putting all that aside, I recognised the importance of having the Bonzini table represented at the UK Championships, plus I heard that a lot of people wanted to play on it...so, I lent the table.

I said that I wanted things sorted in advance...however, things were not confirmed, and in the week leading up to the tournament, I heard several times (e.g. Dave Morgan on msn, and other people) that because so many people wanted to play on Bonzini, that it might have to be dropped from the tournament. In addition, the BFA Committee apparently spent the week arguing over whether Bonzini would be dropped or kept.

So, nothing, including any of the conditions were confirmed until the very last minute.

Incredibly, but believably, Dave Zee had to contact you at midnight the day before the tournament to see if you wanted the table or not.
I understand that Dave Oates was in a similar last minute situation with some sort of lack of communication about his tables and payment.

YOU JUST CAN'T TREAT PEOPLE LIKE THIS.

So...I was up late on Thursday night wondering about the table, and in addition knowing that nothing over payment had been arranged, and no confirmation that damages would be handled fairly.

I wanted to have things organised in advance so that none of this stress and uncertainty would impact on my gig and essential rehearsal time.

On Thursday night, I had a sleepless night, wondering about the table, and other things like the upcoming gig. Not your fault that I couldn't sleep, but the table situation had a negative impact on me.

I lost a crucial half day on Friday morning, when I should have been pracitising, spending time on the phone to DZ, waiting while he phoned you, talking to DZ again, getting repeated calls and texts from DZ, waiting while he spoke to you again. He was trying to speak to you about the conditions of borrowing the table:
1) £40 hire
2) That you would write a letter confirming taking care over transportation and that you would take responsbility for damages and scrapes, etc.
3) That the table could not be returned on Sunday.
Apparently you were extremely angry during the first call with him.

It was ridiculous. This could have been sorted out at least a week before the tournament, in less than 10 minutes. Even if use of the table was uncertain, the potention conditions around borrowing it could, and should, have been organised clearly in advance. It unnecessarily took up a lot of my time and was exceedingly dull and boring.

You seriously need to recognise when people are trying to do you a favour, and do all you can to be cooperative and ease the load on the givers.

...and certainly not Bloop them over with hassle and expenses after the tournament and after you've gotten what you wanted - i.e. use of the table.

In the end on Friday I had DZ arriving at about 4pm to clean the table and sort it out ready for transportation. You guys were to arrive at 5pm. I think you arrived about 8pm. Not a surprise. Though I'm amazed you didn't have problems with your vehicle breaking down. We had already told you that the table needed taking down and moving in the some daylight as it was out the back with stuff underneath it and around it.

So, it wasn't until after 8pm that I had clear space in my day with the damned table gone, with no disruptions.

Luckily, I could leave DZ to help you guys and coordinate it all. The one time I did pop outside, you dropped the table leg, so that was enough for me to scarper quickly inside again.

Chaos surrounds you. And I don't want to have dealings with people like you on anything other than a personal level. I made the mistake of lending you the table, against my better judgement, for the sake of the players.

Can you imagine how I'll feel now if I'm asked again for a future tournament? It is one of the only ITSF bonzini's in the country, and probably the one in the best condition - am I going to want to lend it again? I felt this way even before you tried to Bloop me over with regard to bringing the table back. DON'T Bloop THE PEOPLE THAT FEED YOU.

I'm surprised you even tried to talk to me on the Sunday (when I was having a short break from work and trying to relax at the tournie with my friends).
You told me that you'd like to bring the table back on the early side. I confirmed that it was not possible that day. You pushed and pushed me.

Then you talked to me for a 2nd time, outside when Mase and Joe Bundy were there. I'd already had you going on at me once, I wasn't going to have it again. So I stopped you mid stream and told you it like it was - that the table could not go back that day, that I had my gig to concentrate on, that I had a rehearsal at my house at that time, that I could not risk anything external coming into my 'gig atmosphere'. You are right. I was unilateral. I knew my priorities, my commitment to my guitarist, to the pub and to the audience, and I stuck strong in that.

Bringing the table back would have disrupted me, you needed the back opening up, the things taking out of the room, put back in correctly, etc etc. DZ would have needed to have been there as well, and he was otherwise busy playing in matches and then coming straight to watch my gig and video it. THERE WAS NO WAY I WAS GOING TO LET ANY OF THAT HAPPEN. I WON'T BE PUSHED INTO THINGS BY YOU.

I also offered to spend monday afternoon finding 2 men with a van to pick up and return the table - at the tournament's expense. Obvously, I have to point out to you that this was a nice thing for me to offer to do, BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. I did not have to do this, especially after all the hassle, but I was trying to help.

You then informed me that I would therefore be responsible for the return of the table, and it would be at my expense. You said "You've had your 40 quid for table hire"
40 quid? Are you kidding me? That's pittence for lending you the table for the weekend.

Besides it was an irrelevant comment - in NO way shape or form should the return of the table be my responsibility and at my expense. I lend you my table as a favour, and you want me to incur the cost of it's return?
WHAT AN ABSOLUTE JOKE.

HOW DARE YOU approach me like this on the Sunday on 2 occasions when you knew I had vastly important things to think about? I felt uneasy and upset after our conversation and I was absolutely Bloop FURIOUS.

In summary, I will not have any dealings with you in the future with regard to borrowing my Bonzini table, or with any other matters asking for my assistance with table football. I will help those who are responsible and enlightened - I'll enlighten you now - that is not you.
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE COST OF RETURNING THE TABLE.
I STAND BY MY OFFER OF ORGANISING 2 MEN WITH A VAN TO COLLECT THE TABLE AND PUT IT BACK IN ORDER IN IT'S ROOM. THOUGH EVEN NOW I'M ASKING MYSELF WHY I WILL STILL DO THIS FOR YOU.
PAYMENT MUST BE CREDITED TO MY ACCOUNT IN ADVANCE.

IF THE TABLE IS NOT RETURNED TO ME SOON THEN I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CHARGE YOU ADDITIONAL HIRE FOR THE TABLE.

THAT IS THE SITUATION, LOUD AND CLEAR.

John B has offered to return the table, though I'll understand if he now doesn't want to do it as it's quite involved. If he still does, then you are lucky.

IN EITHER CASE IT IS IMPORTANT TO COMMUNICATE THIS ALL TO YOU.

THIS IS HOW TO BE CLEAR, BORIS.

Cath
LLAB

User avatar
The Duke
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:51 am
Real Name: John Blanchard
Location: Oxford

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by The Duke » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:49 pm

are bonzini's that heavy? they strike me as being a bit lightweight, but what do i know

can we not do it together?

i have some wheels if they help (trolley type thing)

john

User avatar
The Duke
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:51 am
Real Name: John Blanchard
Location: Oxford

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by The Duke » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:59 pm

ps

somehow i missed the long post.

i meant to put a proviso on my offering help that there be no more bickering (or at least to keep it private) but since i didn't my offer stands

maybe you could keep it private from now on

john

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:14 pm

Boris is in Prague until Monday, so the message wont reach to him til then.

As for Bonzini weight, they're not that bad. If you had a sack-truck, then you might even be able to do it yourself, though it will still be useful to have a second person there to help out. When you get it into the shed, put it upright, with playing surface facing the wall. Then you can easily re-attach the legs and upright the table. This is something that's useful to have 2 people, to minimise any risk of table damage. And something that no delivery company would do.

I think this is just a case of misunderstandings. Which can happen when plans are made at the last minute and conveyed through several people. I was quite happy to help move it back Sunday night, but was only informed at about 6 that day that this would not be possible.

I did check with Hotel management before we left Sunday night that the table would be fine in the store room, and that it was separate to the other tables, which where due to be picked up Monday morning. However, not knowing what was going on, we told the hotel that the Bonzini would be picked up "probably on Monday". Thought they seemed fairly relaxed about how long it could stay there, it may well be a good idea to contact the hotel to make sure everything is still ok, and when a good time would be to pick it up would be. If you have not done so already.

potts
Posts: 491
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:10 pm
Real Name: richard potts
Location: tamworth
Contact:

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by potts » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:53 pm

wow the title of this thread is a little misleading...anyone who can may want to change it to something more fitting :D

User avatar
tom_k
Site Administrator
Posts: 854
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:32 am
Real Name: Tom King
Location: Oxford

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by tom_k » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:01 pm

potts wrote:wow the title of this thread is a little misleading...anyone who can may want to change it to something more fitting :D
one might argue that this a 'result from the UKC' :P

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:16 pm

lol - potts, toms

John B - Bonzo's aren't excruciatingly heavy. But I don't carry stuff at all anymore cause of my neck, which is one of the reasons I didn't offer. The other is time. The other is that to be honest I don't want to help in that way - I've given enough time to this situation. If I'd been treated differently, I'd probably feel differently but I haven't, and I don't! I can arrange to be home to meet people, be them you or the delivery men, but that's about it I'm afraid. Cheers, x
LLAB

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 pm

Evertonian wrote:Boris is in Prague until Monday, so the message wont reach to him til then.

As for Bonzini weight, they're not that bad. If you had a sack-truck, then you might even be able to do it yourself, though it will still be useful to have a second person there to help out. When you get it into the shed, put it upright, with playing surface facing the wall. Then you can easily re-attach the legs and upright the table. This is something that's useful to have 2 people, to minimise any risk of table damage. And something that no delivery company would do.

I think this is just a case of misunderstandings. Which can happen when plans are made at the last minute and conveyed through several people. I was quite happy to help move it back Sunday night, but was only informed at about 6 that day that this would not be possible.

I did check with Hotel management before we left Sunday night that the table would be fine in the store room, and that it was separate to the other tables, which where due to be picked up Monday morning. However, not knowing what was going on, we told the hotel that the Bonzini would be picked up "probably on Monday". Thought they seemed fairly relaxed about how long it could stay there, it may well be a good idea to contact the hotel to make sure everything is still ok, and when a good time would be to pick it up would be. If you have not done so already.
Hi Joe Friendly Neighbour Tournie Person,

Ref Boris, I'm sure he can check the internet abroad. He can't just swan off and leave things in a mess!

It's lovely that you're trying to smooth over the situation - but being nicey nicey and trying to tag disorganisation and mess and downright bad treatment as 'misunderstandings' doesn't wash with me! Being around the foozball scene since 2004, I'm quite aware of the way that helpful people are treated and messed around - maybe the first time can be tagged a misunderstanding, but seeing things happen again and again shows that they are not misunderstandings - they are an example of the way that Boris does stuff. Only by pointing things out can something perhaps change - be it Boris himself (doubtful) or people who realise it and just won't deal with him anymore (myself included).

It's nice that you were happy to help bring it back on Sunday - but that in itself is not relevant - because it never could have been brought back on Sunday. If Boris didn't tell you that before sunday, then frankly that's his problem...and I thought in fact that you were there with Boris and Mase at 3:30pm when I reiterated to him again that Sunday was not possible - or maybe it was Boris and Mase and someone else...

I don't feel that I need to contact the hotel - again, I'm not responsible for ensuring I get the table back!

Thanks for trying to help anyway

Cath
LLAB

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:31 pm

The Duke wrote:ps

somehow i missed the long post.

i meant to put a proviso on my offering help that there be no more bickering (or at least to keep it private) but since i didn't my offer stands

maybe you could keep it private from now on

john
Hi again John

You missed the long post because I was busy writing it, lol!

Sometimes things need pointing out - and sometimes this involves other people when the relevant party, i.e. Boris, seems unable to sort things - hence posting it on the forum.

Maybe it'll also save other people from making a similar mistake in dealing with Boris in the first place, like I did.

I'm not afraid to say it like it is.

Cath
LLAB

User avatar
Naked Snake
Posts: 984
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:04 pm
Real Name: Mark "I'm on the left" Williams
Location: Chicago

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Naked Snake » Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:45 pm

Wow! I've been off the forum for two years and nothing's changed ; )

Shovo's the UK champion apparently. Well done mate. And well done to Mase as well for still being mediocre, but being very good at it.
Just Cup Them

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:34 pm

Hello again

I would like some assurance please from Boris (or whoever is dealing with things in his absense) that you are taking this forward...either that you're making arrangements with John B or that you'd like me to find 2 men with a van.

Either way, I'd like it sorted out asap cause I'd like my table back (only fair!) - and it was only hired until Monday.

Thanks!

Cath
LLAB

queen_of_foos
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:21 pm
Real Name: Hannah Deakin
Location: Southampton

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by queen_of_foos » Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:59 pm

I agree with Potts - this definitely doesn't belong in the "Results from the UKC" thread. I don't think it belongs on the forum at all - surely personal attacks against people don't belong on here? I know Boris is quite capable of looking after himself, however as he isn't even in the country it seems really harsh that all these comments are being publicly made against him.
I vote for foos harmony... people put a lot of work into organising the tourney, and it all seems to be thankless - just endless complaints. At this rate, we'll have no one left willing to help run tourneys and the foos scene will just die.

User avatar
shovie
Posts: 2696
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:16 pm
Real Name: Alex Shovelton
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by shovie » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:58 pm

Well said Hannah.

User avatar
Catherine
Posts: 2327
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:18 pm
Real Name: Catherine Brown
Location: Various

Re: Results from the UKC

Post by Catherine » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:09 pm

queen_of_foos wrote:I agree with Potts - this definitely doesn't belong in the "Results from the UKC" thread. I don't think it belongs on the forum at all - surely personal attacks against people don't belong on here? I know Boris is quite capable of looking after himself, however as he isn't even in the country it seems really harsh that all these comments are being publicly made against him.
I vote for foos harmony... people put a lot of work into organising the tourney, and it all seems to be thankless - just endless complaints. At this rate, we'll have no one left willing to help run tourneys and the foos scene will just die.
Yeah you're right Hannah if things continue as they are then less and less people will want to help with tournies - including myself - can think of a couple of amazing and dedicated people straight off the top of my head who won't help at all anymore.

I don't mind if someone who can wants to split this thread and rename the bit about my table.

What I wrote in my initial post happened. Are you saying that it's ok for these things to happen but not ok for people to talk about them? (You don't have to answer that!).

Shovie - are you able to involve yourself as a commmittee member in Boris' absense? I'm not sure if you were involved in the tournie organisation or not, but it would be good to know who can respond and take some action.

The fact remains - I lent my table and it's still not here. Can someone help please?

Cheers, Cath
LLAB

Locked