The snake is banned- would you still come to tournaments?

Foosball chat / key issues and discussion

You are a current tournament attendee; the snake is banned - would you still attend?

Yes, I would attend more tourneys than I do currently
24
34%
Yes, about the same number of tournaments
34
48%
Yes, but not quite as many
4
6%
No, although I can see myself being coaxed back into tournament play
3
4%
No, I would give up tournament foos for ever
6
8%
 
Total votes: 71

The Doctor
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The snake is banned- would you still come to tournaments?

Post by The Doctor » Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:44 pm

You are a current tournament attendee; the snake is banned - would you still attend tournaments?

Just to see what might be current players' reactions to what could be considered the 'worst case scenario.'

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patritsch
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Post by patritsch » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:39 am

My question is, how would the according rule be formulated? Would you ban all rollovers? That would take away an important straight shooting option for Euro Pin shooters.

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Post by davez » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:02 am

At best this would mean that people would stop playing and practicing the snake and we would lose our competitiveness in the international arena, which is where the foosball scene is nowadays (in case you hadn't noticed).

It is doubtful that we would be able to maintain the "team UK" enthusiasm and incredible team spirit that we currently enjoy. At worst it would mean that there wouldn't be any more ITSF tournaments in the UK, either because the BFA would have banned them or because the ITSF would remove our status for not allowing the snake at tournaments.

This would be a complete disaster for UK foosball and would probably signal the end of the game in the UK for a long time.

It's ironic that we would consider crippling oursleves just as we appear to making serious inroads for the first time in the international arena.

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Post by nfm24 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:09 am

davez wrote:we would lose our competitiveness in the international arena, which is where the foosball scene is nowadays (in case you hadn't noticed).
And wouldn't it be so much better if the scene was here? How could we get that to happen I wonder.
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Post by robmoss2k » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:19 am

nfm24 wrote:And wouldn't it be so much better if the scene was here?
I have to admit, it would be nice to not have to travel abroad just to get a few games.
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Bundy Volume 1
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Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:31 am

In Harry Hill style

What is the best direction for UK foos? Snaking or No Snaking?
There's only one way to find out!

FFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGHHHHTT!!!!!!!!!

Can we have some volunteers to dress up as a snake and a mongoose/Austin Stevens?

Rob D v Mac/Dave Z v Bobby?

It felt better to put this here rather than further spamming the main thread

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Post by The Doctor » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:40 pm

davez wrote:At best this would mean that people would stop playing and practicing the snake and we would lose our competitiveness in the international arena, which is where the foosball scene is nowadays (in case you hadn't noticed).
International players make up a small proportion of the scene here, or at least they should do!

@ Patritsch - pin shooters can shoot straights without rolling over, I'm guessing.

In any case, the poll seems to show that banning the snake would result in a possible net gain for UK tournaments - and that's just taking into account the views of current players, not those who we might attract because of the rule change!

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Post by davez » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:50 pm

Andrei, I think it's not so good to use the phrase "banning the snake" because it can be interpreted in different ways, and so you may believe you have a consensus view when you do not.

Does it mean no snakes in any events or just serious ones? FSO? From defence? DYPs? What about the straight? Does it mean no-snake events will be included in the open rankings or not? Lots of different possibilities with different degress of support and opposition from each player.

I don't know what you mean by international players should make up a small proportion of the scene here. If I were Boris I bet I could say pretty quickly what fraction of UK players who have attended UK tournaments this year have also played abroad this year. I bet it's quite high.

But the success of the UK game does not have to be at the expense of the international game, and indeed it does not make sense for it to be so.

But it might be that the UK game is now suffciently mature that we now need two distinct "interest groups", one for the local UK scene and one for international UK scene. If so then they should work together and work to avoid conflicts rather than seek them.

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Post by The Doctor » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:16 pm

davez wrote:Andrei, I think it's not so good to use the phrase "banning the snake" because it can be interpreted in different ways, and so you may believe you have a consensus view when you do not.
By 'banning the snake' I mean banishing it completely from all tournaments - I figured that assuming the strongest possible attitude against it would be most interesting for the poll. This is not to say that I personally would ban it at all - I just wanted to see whether doing so would lead our scene to collapse. In fact, this doesn't seem to be the case at all - only a very small proportion of voters would drop out of the game completely.
davez wrote:I don't know what you mean by international players should make up a small proportion of the scene here. If I were Boris I bet I could say pretty quickly what fraction of UK players who have attended UK tournaments this year have also played abroad this year. I bet it's quite high.
What I mean is that in a healthy scene, one would expect there to be many, many more non-international players, as tournaments would appeal to large numbers of novices who would have had no reason to travel abroad to play. A current worry is that the scene has become top-heavy, with the elite making the game increasingly inaccessible to the grass roots.
davez wrote:But the success of the UK game does not have to be at the expense of the international game, and indeed it does not make sense for it to be so.
The thing is, I wonder exactly how damaging banning the snake would be to individual players' games here. Sure, we would get less practice shooting and defending a particular shot, but that's not to say that this could be made up by practice outside of local tournaments or attendance at international events.

I would say that an advantage of the snake is that, once the mechanics have been sorted, it requires less match practice than other things. This is why I was able to shoot 80%+ against Rob A. at the Bolton Garlando tourney and 90%+ against Erwin Metten in Austria and still lost both matches - the snake was still effective despite lack of match practice whilst my 5 bar had died because of it.
davez wrote:But it might be that the UK game is now suffciently mature that we now need two distinct "interest groups", one for the local UK scene and one for international UK scene. If so then they should work together and work to avoid conflicts rather than seek them.
Well quite, but one would hope to see much interaction between the two. The poll results suggest that, given a no-snake tour, most current tournament players would be happy to take part. If the poll results had shown 50%+ threatening to give up the game, then that's when we should worry about compatibility between different codes and the wisdom of carrying out some kind of definite split.

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Post by patritsch » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:22 pm

The Doctor wrote:@ Patritsch - pin shooters can shoot straights without rolling over, I'm guessing.
They would have to practice moving the man's foot around the ball very quickly, but basically, I think it's doable. And I'm sure the majority of German top players would LOVE seeing the Snake banned so much that they would most willingly adjust their game.

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Post by Richard » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:01 pm

davez wrote:At best this would mean that people would stop playing and practicing the snake and we would lose our competitiveness in the international arena, which is where the foosball scene is nowadays (in case you hadn't noticed).
If this is your "at best" i think you must not have read Geoff's article. If this was the best case outcome, the topic would not have generated the slightest murmur of a debate.

How about:
AT BEST
- The uk grass roots scene is reinvigorated, with more players interested at local level and subsequently feeding through to national level
- The national scene suddenly becomes interesting again, attracting many of the people who have dropped out over the last few years back into the game
- The most competitive players demand certain events where snake is allowed, which become prestige events with long formats to give players best practice
- The top players increasingly travel to Europe to get the top slice of action, making us more competitive overall
- Diversity allows players to choose which types of events to attend, meaning that popular ones succeed and unpopular ones decline. We all benefit from having the choice

AT WORST
- The top players are peeved and feel disadvantaged as they dont get to practice shooting/defending this one shot
- One-dimensional snakers are peeved that they now have to learn other shots
- We lose the 6 people who say they will drop out if snake is banned (assuming of course this is applied to every single table type and event, which clearly it would not be)
- Within a year we realise it is not working and reverse the decision


My recommendation is to risk it. If only we had some event organisers willing to take the risk...

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Post by The Doctor » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:19 pm

Richard wrote: AT BEST
- The uk grass roots scene is reinvigorated, with more players interested at local level and subsequently feeding through to national level
- The national scene suddenly becomes interesting again, attracting many of the people who have dropped out over the last few years back into the game
- The most competitive players demand certain events where snake is allowed, which become prestige events with long formats to give players best practice
- The top players increasingly travel to Europe to get the top slice of action, making us more competitive overall
- Diversity allows players to choose which types of events to attend, meaning that popular ones succeed and unpopular ones decline. We all benefit from having the choice

AT WORST
- The top players are peeved and feel disadvantaged as they dont get to practice shooting/defending this one shot
- One-dimensional snakers are peeved that they now have to learn other shots
- We lose the 6 people who say they will drop out if snake is banned (assuming of course this is applied to every single table type and event, which clearly it would not be)
- Within a year we realise it is not working and reverse the decision


My recommendation is to risk it. If only we had some event organisers willing to take the risk...
Great post

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Post by robmoss2k » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:41 pm

Richard wrote:Stuff
Tremendous post
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Post by Christopher Lyall » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:42 pm

Don't worry everyone, the debate's been settled. I've invented a new shot called the Crocodile. You front pin the ball, walk it around for 14 seconds then hit the straight and yell out 'SNAP!'. If it goes in then you reach across the table and slap your opponent in the face.
www.fivebar.co.uk - Foosball Tournaments, Leagues, Shop

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Post by davez » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:48 pm

Richard,

I read Geoff's article and found in it no pursuasive evidence that the snake has been the cause of declining foos. In fact the foosball scene that I see is healthier than it has ever been, except for one area, and that is the local pub scene. I hardly go to the the pub any more to foos. There is no evidence that this decline is caused by the snake. The snake has been around for years, it's more likely caused by smoking ban and/or hard times.

This absurd vendetta against one type of shot defies all logic and reason. It's just a trivial example of the kind of madness that occasionally sweeps through human culture in times of stress, the mindless persecution of a harmless subgroup.

If people believe that the snake has done harm in certain arenas (eg Geoff's pubs, schools, pubs where beginners play) then why don't we fix it in those arenas instead of allowing it to impact those areas where nothing is wrong (ranked tournaments, ITSF rules, international competition).

Why not construct a snake-free environment for beginners (those who apparently have the problem), and then allow them to progress to a snake-inclusive environment as they get hooked on the game and increase their skills?

The irony of all this is that if enough people get behind it then they may well end up envigorating the foos scene, simply because they found a cause that excites them and moves them to action.

I think this thing about top players being peeved is not right. The top players will by and large adjust to any restriction you put on them, and will still be the top players, at least in the UK. Disallowing the snake will do more harm to the lower ranked players who have less all-round ability and experience but have been made competitive by their relatively strong 3-bars.

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Post by Steviola » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:11 pm

davez wrote:Why not construct a snake-free environment for beginners (those who apparently have the problem), and then allow them to progress to a snake-inclusive environment as they get hooked on the game and increase their skills?


That is, by and large, the main aim of the Youth and Grass Roots Development Group, Dave.

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Post by Rob Davey » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:20 pm

davez wrote:

I think this thing about top players being peeved is not right. The top players will by and large adjust to any restriction you put on them, and will still be the top players, at least in the UK. Disallowing the snake will do more harm to the lower ranked players who have less all-round ability and experience but have been made competitive by their relatively strong 3-bars.
Dave - the best post this week.

Rob

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Post by Black Cloud » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:21 pm

I hate this forum.

The snake is clearly divisive, even among the regular tournament goers.  That's why there was one of the longest running threads on it a while back on Britfoos.

Among GB's concerns, and this is not his only concern, is that snake dominated tournaments and play put off his regulars.  That means you have potentially less people playing.

Tournaments should be the showcase for the game of tf, for promoting the game, not just a few saddo's who have spent more time than is healthy practicing it.

The one thing that is clear from all this rubbish is that GB has managed to place another couple of tables while the usual suspects are determined to win the argument at all costs.

Well done.

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Post by robmoss2k » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:28 pm

Dave, if you can offer conclusive proof that the snake is not the reason for the decline of the wider game then I shall stand beside you and say that we shouldn't try banning it to see what happens.

If you can't, you're approaching this argument from exactly the wrong angle, and every time that you say you want proof before you try to fix something, I shall look at the floor, shake my head and sigh.
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Post by The Mongoose » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:13 pm

Thank you, Mike Pierce, for noting I have been busy getting more tables out there whilst everyone else has been arguing about how to save our ailing game. Thought you might like to know I have got two more sites out this week- one in Ridgeway School (near Swindon), and the other in a new complex attached to Wolverhampton College.

Geoff

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