BFA and DP

Foosball chat / key issues and discussion
snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:04 pm

Black Cloud wrote: We haven't always seen eye to eye in the past, but I just want to say you are one of the most committed, selfless and decent people in the game.
Respect.
Thanks Mike, I'm touched. Just one minor correction though, "who were" should be inserted before "in the game"

stumpy

Post by stumpy » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:04 pm

Tick Tick Tick Tick :lol:

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:08 pm

Yeah, I know, they know. Apperently things have changed, though I remain officially uninformed. Seems there is no debt. The current committee think a debt is wiped clean when a new C'ttee is elected. I'm gonna try something like that with my bank...lol

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Messiah
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Post by Messiah » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:57 pm

I thought JW had said there was a debt owing? Have the Committee backtracked?
Still going....

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Mogwai
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Post by Mogwai » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:07 pm

snakecharmer wrote:Yeah, I know, they know. Apperently things have changed, though I remain officially uninformed. Seems there is no debt. The current committee think a debt is wiped clean when a new C'ttee is elected. I'm gonna try something like that with my bank...lol
This is not the case, Dave, please give us a chance to put together a response.

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:22 pm

As the BFA have not met any arrangements, deadlines, or so much as even been in contact with me over this issue, I'm going to lay it all out. I'm sure your all bored with the situation, so this ends all of it. There may be some lessons here for those who have dealings with the BFA. Mainly, do not think you're dealing with some straight, upright organisation. You will get stiffed, whoever you are.
This debt started a year or three back. World Cup team, I was selected for a place, all within the BFA's selection criteria and all paid for. as were all of the places. I had no part in this selection. Some decided to question my selection and the motives of those doing the selecting. The team was also announced a couple of days early, which again started questions. The queries came from inside the committee and one or two neglected players. all people in my view who don't even deserve the same airspace as those that were being questioned. It looked likely to snowball. There was an easy solution. Early on I forwarded the name of a player who didn't make the selection. My offer was simple. I would quietly step back and this player would get my place, providing he paid the deposit on time, etc and met the usual acceptance criteria. I added the "BFA owe me one, and I will recall it" No objections were raised, I stepped back, the player got the spot. The questions stopped at a stroke.
 Roll on a year or two. That old Nugget, the Havelock. A ref was physically and verbally threatened whilst officiating a game I was involved in. I thougt this was out of order somewhat, and made my complaint official. As it all transpired. despite everyone stopping their play and watching, plus the 8 or 10 around my table, nobody saw anything. I stated then, sort it out or I walk. Nothing was ever sorted, I walked.
Now, trying to distance myself from foosball, I decided to tie up any loose ends. There was only one minor one. I approached some committee members and reminded them of this "debt". Early on, they were keen to help, but their interest waned. I stated early on all I wanted was then to ackowledge there was this outstanding "moral debt". Moral as in I asked for nothing monetary or material, purely admission this debt was still there. The BFA collectively could not do this, though some have privately said "yeah, we still owe you that" This failure led me to post it on the open forum, as I had warned them it would happen. and they agreed to. This led to another minor flurry of activity, soon to peter out. My post said they now owed the debt not the acknowledgement of it, and was due 7pm tonight. The thread clearly shows they admitted acknowledgement of the debt, though this was posted a bit late...lol
I was asked what I wanted, so I told them. One person (NOT myself) would get a Lifetime Honourary BFA membership for his behind the scenes work, and later maltreatment by the BFA, This would cost them a couple of quid a year, should he ever return to a tournament (so DEFINITELY not me)  I had pre-warned those concerned that if this wasn't met, the stakes would rise, I would want more.
It seems now the BFA, collecticvely or otherwise, reckon there is no debt. My debt was with another committee, their predecessors. So everything agreed by former committees has no weight? I'm sure the legal profession would disagree that stance. Now I'm considered old school where your word is good and your debts get honoured. That counts for nothing here, it seems the modern way is slip out of it any way you can and your word is changeable. They have dealt with it their way. God forbid someone does succeed in getting me back to a tournie, it will be time then to deal with unpaid debts my way, old school.
So what do the stakes go up to now? I had some ideas, mainly aimed at creating some permanent embarrassment "up there", but hey, it is no longer worth fighting for. So now? Nothing, it stays with me as an unpaid debt, whether the BFA recognise it or not. I won't chase it any more, but if it comes up face to face, we'll deal with it then.
Thanks to those who sent messages of support, and those few who STILL want me in the game, fools..lol. It there was even the slightest chance of me returning, this sour episode tells me I made the right choice after the Havelock, my departure is now fully justfiable to me.. After around 30 years of playing tournaments through good times and bad in the game. this apathy/arrogance displayed in these 2 issues has destroyed my will to continue. From my personal experiences, the BFA are killing the desire in some by a complete disability to deal with things when they arise, and many of these are the wheels within the BFA machine. They just throw up excuses for not doing anything, and I'll defy anyone to prove otherwise in my case.
I'll leave this post up a couple of days for any interested parties, then my account gets deleted and I don't know if the posts then disappear.

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Boris
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Post by Boris » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:25 pm

The situation to which Dave refers arose in Spring 2006 when Dave was on the BFA Committee, and concerned team selection for the 2006 World Cup.

The decision at the time was that Rob, as team captain, would select the squad.  However as the deadline for the team announcement approached Rob was away in the USA and was not responding to e-mails.

Rob had previous provided the following list of players but included two reserves:
Men:
Rob Atha (captain)
Tich Degun
Sanjay Kumar
Rhys Roberts
Alex Shovelton
Juj Sohi
Bruce Jassal (reserve)
Dave Perrott (reserve)

Women:
Hannah Ramlee
Caroline Wong
Cath Brown (reserve)
It was not until after the deadline for team announcements that Rob indicated he had selected Bruce Jassal rather than Dave for the squad, however just before the deadline I had submitted the team with Dave named as reserve to ITSF.  I had presumed that this would have been Rob's selection as Dave had previously been his regular doubles partner, and had extensive recent experience of UK and international tournaments.

After the deadline had passed Rob contacted me and angrily insisted that Bruce be selected ahead of Dave and the then committee ratified that decision.  Dave was offered the position of team coach but declined the offer.  
I had stated I would stay out of the selection discussion due to being on the original short list, but I feel this needs resolving. So I shall resolve it.
I personally agree with all points on my selection by Boris. But.
I shall stand down as a player.
My place will be offered to Bruce Jassel.
His acceptance of the place is signalled by the receipt of the deposit, on    time.
This situation stays inside the Committee, and there shall be no mention of it    elsewhere at least until all decisions have been made,
Should the place not be taken, or deposit not received by Bruce Jassel, on time, I shall be re-instated.
My standing down is subject to all conditions stated.


So, there you have it, sorting out someones' mess. I am owed one for this, and somewhere down the line I'll recall it.
I take full responsibility and apologise for including Dave in the original World Cup squad, and still believe his selection would have been justified at the time - with no disrespect intended to Bruce who had attended very few tournaments during the previous 2-3 years, and who performed well for the team in the event.  However I was overruled and it was left to me to explain the situation to Dave, who promptly withdrew from the squad in favour of Bruce.

Dave has indicated his terms
What I ask is simple. One Life Time Honorary BFA Membership. This status means that any annual BFA fees for full membership are waived and full member staus is automatic. "Lifetime Honorary BFA Memeber is also subtitled under the avatar for Britfoos. This is a "one off" membership, meaning making everyone an Honorary Lifetime Member to annul the status, or ANY OTHER tricks by the BFA will not be tolerated, and the debt will be deemed "owed" again. In other words, as we said earlier. old school honour, no dirty tricks. It is not transferrable to any other player, and is honoured by the BFA or any other body taking on their role at a later date.

This membership will be given to PAUL TAYLOR aka Stumpy. He is pretty alienated by some BFA actions and attitudes after doing plenty of graft and feeling shat on by certain later actions. Some of which were a pretty appalling. There are others who probably also deserve this, but I'm not fighting everyone's corner. He doesn't know about this yet.
To award such a membership at the present time would be unconstitutional, however this could change if an amendment was accepted by an AGM and EGM.  I would favour introducing such a category for individuals who have made an outstanding contribution to the game, Dave would clearly be amongst such individuals but there are others with equal or greater claims to such an honour.

Dave also asked for the sacrifices of another named individual to be recognised similarly.

I have been completely open and candid about the situation Dave raises, and had no desire to 'air dirty linen' in a public forum, however I, and the rest of the Committee (the majority of whom were not committee members at the relevant time) are left with little choice by Dave's ultimatum.  Consequently this post (and any quotes taken from it) will be deleted in 24 hours time.
Last edited by Boris on Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:26 pm

stumpy wrote:Tick Tick Tick Tick :lol:

Boom


"This is not the case, Dave, please give us a chance to put together a response."

I thought the 1 week of silence was enough.

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Boris
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Post by Boris » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:37 pm

As far as the Havelock incident goes, we were hamstrung by an inadequate disciplinary policy.  Now with the ITSF policy to back us up we could have banned the offending player for up to 2 years.  We were also short of independent witnesses not allied to either camp, and the referee/victim who had accepted a later private apology from the player and did not intend to take the matter further.  I fully understand that Dave P felt let down by his fellow players when another player was clearly threatening the ref, by their not backing him up.  The disciplinary commission treated the complaint by the book, unfortunately the book was inadequate at the time.  What more could have been done?  Most of the then committee did not attend the tournament in question, so we were reliant on the accounts of witnesses.

For the record, the offending player was found guilty of verbal abuse and was warned as to his future conduct, but found not guilty/not proven on an allegation of physical abuse or threats of violence, which would have resulted in a ban even under the old policy.  This incident resulted in changes to the disciplinary policy and code of conduct, which appeared to work adequatly in resolving a recent dispute.

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:40 pm

Some of Boris' facts on the selection were not even open to myself during that whoe fiasco, so it seems. But no matter. I know some knew I was posting my final resonse after the deadline was up, and now there seems to be a flurry of activity to steal my fire. The distraction of one committee member on MSN delaying my post...lol  I had attempted not to let Stumpy know about this, but that is obviously now blown open.

stumpy

Post by stumpy » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:57 pm

"One Life Time Honorary BFA Membership" hmmm.

I withdrew my support for foos ball as i was fed up with the micky being taken, when moving tables about (something i have chated with boris about) get any more than two tables set up and your help Bloop off and starts playing. Warwick was the worst for this, both in set up and strip down.

I said in another post that when someting wasnt fun do something else, well tournaments aint fun, in fact its like being in a room full of clone's.

When people stop giving up time for this sport which is happening it will end up dead on its arse, which would be a shame

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:23 pm

Yeah, figured you'd smile at that one, you just choked on a beer? I kept names out of it, including yours, Boz's and anyone else's. Pity the little bird that pre-warned of my imminent expose hadn't heard of dis-information, and Boz exposed way more than I because of that. Suckered, and I obviously now know who the little bird is..lol
The scrabble at the end of this sad event looks like some were determined to make clear my deadline meant nothing. They still have not figured I stick to my guns or they're trying to make it clear they do not like being dictated to. Either way, the struggle for some justice is over, I don't care who the winner is any more and nobody else does.

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Post by Craig » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:51 pm

.
Last edited by Craig on Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:08 am

This is probably the only place those sort of people in the game will EVER get the true recognition they've earnt. Sadly, being somewhat anti-BFA  nowadays (I wonder why) he'll be ignored elsewhere.
This is no longer my fight, the BFA won't repay me any moral debt. And I no longer will waste my time chasing it. What goes around comes around.        

  Always.

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Richard
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Post by Richard » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:05 pm

Was this the bust up with Kalsi? I lose track, and frankly no longer care.

This post/rant/thread etc is such a waste of everyone's time. I have no idea what the gripe is, reasonable or otherwise, but just get over it and move on. Having a 2 year silent strop and then asking a committee who were not born when the incident happened to adjudicate is just pathetic.

The number of people give me Bloop for stuff apparently i could have controled or promised or something is unbelievable. Do i go crying to mummy?

Richard

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:00 am

Finally grown some balls Thomson? Not really, seeing as you've stayed very quiet until I finally decided to call it a day. Wind your neck in before you get into some place you REALLY don't want to be.

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Richard
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Post by Richard » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:17 am

snakecharmer wrote:Finally grown some balls Thomson? Not really, seeing as you've stayed very quiet until I finally decided to call it a day. Wind your neck in before you get into some place you REALLY don't want to be.
Ah dave, dont you remember the good old days when wee just turned up and let Tich do all the work, and there was none of this online banter? I remember the discussions - Tornado SUCKS, Garlando RULES. Easy

And dave, my silence is because you are not the only one to have lost interest, though not over something that happened years ago, but just because it has been clear for years that this game is going nowhere.

Actually - on second reading - is that a threat of violence? Committee do something i am being physically threatened!!!! i demand an enquiry and an apology!!!!

snakecharmer

Post by snakecharmer » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:47 am

Richard wrote: Actually - on second reading - is that a threat of violence? Committee do something i am being physically threatened!!!! i demand an enquiry and an apology!!!!
Now you KNOW that that won't happen.

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Messiah
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Post by Messiah » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:34 pm

Can I suggest politely that everyone watches what they say. We know if we were all in the room together talking then noone would be this confrontational and aggressive. Rich, Dave please consider carefully what you post.

You both fundamentally love the game. Dave you have been playing for 30 years or something. Rich you hate the game so much it must be all of a week since you last played.

Can I therefore as politely as possible suggest you both stop looking to stir up trouble and either support the game or at least stop posting aggressively that in no way helps the development of the game.
Still going....

stumpy

Post by stumpy » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:57 pm

don't be so sure dan, some of us have been working on building sites for years and have "stepped round the back to sort a problem out"

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