Geoff Brice Newsletter discussion

Foosball chat / key issues and discussion
Steviola
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Post by Steviola » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:08 am

Richard Thomson - what the f***?

Bobby - yes mate!

However the most important bit was here:
CannonBallGuy wrote:there are really only two very distinct ends to table football in the UK: The Pro end and Geoff's college end?
This is the big picture here. We need to fill in the gap between these two worlds.

Bugger - all this ranting has made me decide to actually start up this Grass Roots thing for real now (I'm possibly ready). So...

I'm looking for volunteers!

Are you passionate about the game of foosball in this country? Do you want to help address the current decline in the UK? Do you wish there was a foosball venue with a regular night near you?

I'm looking for volunteers to help sort out our game. I want to get a LOT of people involved. The more people involved, the less work for everybody. I will be looking for regional representatives to help initialise progress in different areas. By breaking up the country into small chunks we will find it a lot easier to tackle the issues UK foosball is facing, and by working together in this group we can bounce ideas off each other to find the best way to proceed.

Even if you don't think that you could do much actively but still have some good ideas that you're willing to share you are welcome to join and contribute.

EVERYONE on here has the same wish that foosball was a lot bigger in this country, so let's try to make it happen!

If you would like to join the Youth and Grass Roots Development Working Group, please PM me and I will add you.

I will post more (and give this its own thread) tomorrow as I'm quite tired now. If you have any questions etc don't hesitate to ask.

Steve

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kizersose
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Post by kizersose » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:46 am

Steven
Good to see a positive post  :D
If anyone interested and want a venue local then all you need is look to find RIELY'S club 160 in the UK, then speak to the manager explain about the RIELY'S in Manchester and Bolton decide what table you want Tor or Gar or Bon speak to F4F or to hwo ever supply Gar and Bon.

Good luck

George
Kick ass at Nante British team good luck

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Richard
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Post by Richard » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:15 am

Ban the snake - its a spin. I think i signed up for that about 4 years ago. And yet here we are. Its all bollocks.

Geoff should just do what he thinks is right. Boris should do what he thinks is right. And the pro-community should decide if they want to take the radical action of banning one shot. I know i no longer give a Bloop.

I bent over backwards for an extended period of time to get Geoff to try to get some sort of balance into the game, when everything was changing tables, but he never engaged. It seems one spat with boris/rhys (or whoever) was enough that he never wnted anything to do with the BFA and that has continued ever since (until now?).

As a man i really like him, as an operator i have enormous respect for him, as a preacher of the way forward for table football i agree with him and have done for years. However, the way he has borne vendettas agains others who trying to promote the game, the way he continually allocates blame as if there is some grand conspiracy, and the way he claims to have interest at a national level when in fact he solely focusses and supports his own player base - and then blaming others for all this - i think he is behaving like a complete Bloop.  

Controversial, fine. Sue me you Bloop.

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Oatsey
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players

Post by Oatsey » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:10 am

Mac, trust me Alex is right there is no problem at the top level who are better than ever and there is more strength in depth.

The tournament turnout is lower in 2008 but as I keep pointing out that is primarilly because there were so many! I am not sure why many people choose to ignore this simple fact as a key factor (not the only factor obv) in numbers attending.

It is at the new player level that we have a problem which is what Geoff and others are pointing out and that is true . However there will always be and always has been a hard core of dedicated foosers. I have 30 years experience of that aspect. There have been and always will be players that take it up play for a while and then for reasons of change in their lives stop for a while or permanently, that is life.

Its how we expand the fundamental player base and get  more tables out to play on and increase the number of people playing generally is what matters. Whether they take it seriously and attend tournaments or just play for fun does not matter for me anyway.

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nfm24
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Post by nfm24 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:46 am

Steviola wrote:Are you passionate about the game of foosball in this country? Do you want to help address the current decline in the UK? Do you wish there was a foosball venue with a regular night near you?
YES!   YES!!   YES!!!
Oatsey wrote:Its how we expand the fundamental player base and get  more tables out to play on and increase the number of people playing generally is what matters. Whether they take it seriously and attend tournaments or just play for fun does not matter for me anyway.
Steviola wrote:EVERYONE on here has the same wish that foosball was a lot bigger in this country, so let's try to make it happen!
Spot on. Couldn't have put it better.

These endless discussions over banning one shot, or which table type is "best", or which styple of play you like, or what rankings to use, are completely pointless outside of the existing group of a hundred or so tournament players.

Let's have some real ambition about the sport as a whole.  
How about making the game ten times bigger in the UK?
How about a UK championships with 100 tables?
How about Rob Atha being a household name?

Those are long term goals. Small steps need to be taken along the way, and things need to get done rather than talked about. Most of the time and energy goes into running the "national" tournament scene, or personal practices.

But the major issue that needs to be done is to make the sport bigger.
To get more people playing, more tables to play on.
(and not just a few more, 10 times as many as there are now)
To recruit more of the existing players and get them involved in running local tournaments etc.
More posters and advertising of events, and making tournament totally noob magnets.
Image

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CannonBallGuy
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Post by CannonBallGuy » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:53 am

Attendance may not be in decline but is still significantly lower than 10,000.
Would it be such a bad thing if something was done that resulted in half the current 100 tournament goers leaving while 500 new players started attending?
Something has to be done and it has to be done for the sport as a whole, not for the relatively small group of current tournament goers.

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Messiah
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Re: players

Post by Messiah » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:23 pm

Oatsey wrote:Mac, trust me Alex is right there is no problem at the top level who are better than ever and there is more strength in depth.

The tournament turnout is lower in 2008 but as I keep pointing out that is primarilly because there were so many! I am not sure why many people choose to ignore this simple fact as a key factor (not the only factor obv) in numbers attending.

It is at the new player level that we have a problem which is what Geoff and others are pointing out and that is true . However there will always be and always has been a hard core of dedicated foosers. I have 30 years experience of that aspect. There have been and always will be players that take it up play for a while and then for reasons of change in their lives stop for a while or permanently, that is life.

Its how we expand the fundamental player base and get  more tables out to play on and increase the number of people playing generally is what matters. Whether they take it seriously and attend tournaments or just play for fun does not matter for me anyway.
Excellent post Dave!
Still going....

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shovie
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Post by shovie » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:56 pm

Way off topic, but I've put together some stats of my own regarding tournament attendance.  

<img src="http://umu.man.ac.uk/utablefootball/Foo ... aments.jpg">

Make of it what you will.

Alex

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Oatsey
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Tournaments

Post by Oatsey » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:20 pm

You forgot the Floatel this year or hereford as there are Two Tornado events!

Steviola
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Post by Steviola » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:21 pm

We've had 2 Tornado tournaments this year (Hereford and Floatel - and UKOpen contained Tornado tables).

Also I seem to remember having 64 teams in OD at a Warwick Open, either the second or third one can't remember fully nor do I have the stats at hand.

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fool_on_the_hill
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Post by fool_on_the_hill » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:30 pm

Steviola wrote:Also I seem to remember having 64 teams in OD at a Warwick Open, either the second or third one can't remember fully nor do I have the stats at hand.
55 at OD kick-off in 2006, 52 after drop-outs.

OD in 2007 was smaller, with 51 (although the 101 in OS was a record).


Interesting correlation in the numbers anyway. Note that there are not enough data points to be statistically significant. This is, as Peter Snow would say, just a bit of fun:

Image
Last edited by fool_on_the_hill on Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Mongoose
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Post by The Mongoose » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:26 pm

Richard Thomson’s posts have reminded me that a situation of some concern has developed which, as I caused it, I must try to resolve. During my interview for the newsletter, Dan asked me to comment on what I thought the BFA did well, and badly, and I gave some examples of my experiences. It was not meant to be a witch-hunt, so I did not name the individual’s involved. I still haven’t, and I trust it was noticed that Boris put Richard’s name in the frame for the Reading fiasco, not me. Inevitably, my decision to avoid naming people has led to speculation as to which individuals were involved. This, in turn, has led to fingers being pointed in entirely the wrong direction.

My dilemma, then, was a simple but awkward one. Should I name the few to spare the blushes of the many, or remain silent and allow them all to be tarred with the same brush?  Fortunately, the answer is simpler than I at first thought. I was careful in my earlier answers to emphasize that the examples I gave where it was evident some committee members had put self-interest before the good of the game, and had indeed destroyed the goodwill I had taken over 10 years to develop with my Bath foosers, were confined to those involving some committee members who still serve.

I now know that the intervening years have seen all but one of those involved leave the committee. To end any further speculation, then, I would like to state that I have no problem whatsoever with working together with the committee members named below. In fact, I hope I can consider many of them to be friends, and warmly welcome any initiatives we can explore together to revive our ailing sport.

Alex Shovelton
John Shovelton
John Worthington
Dave Morgan
Tom Burdett
Suki Jaffer
Chaz Allen
Ben Mason


I hope to be able to reply to Richard's posts soon.

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The Mongoose
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Post by The Mongoose » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:39 pm

I hope it is not against the rules to do two posts so close together. I have just spent a day away with my family and hadn't realised how dangerous it would be (to spend a day away from the computer that is, not spend a day away with my family -although they come close)

Luke Ashley.
I have been meaning to reply to your post of Aug 5, but got bogged down trying to defend myself from one thing and another. Sorry If I appeared rude.

Ref your kind offer to run a 'no snake' event at the next Holwell bash. I have got a very popular FT in a sixth form annex to North Leamington School & Arts College. It is the nearest site I have to the Holywell, I think. The students literally play the FT all day without a break, and because of this it is under threat of removal. Students are forever being dragged of it by irate teachers. Sensibly, they believe their time is better spent playing foosball than attending lectures.

I have invited them to previous Holywell events as Sarah can confirm, and - as some of them are now quite tasty - I find it frustrating that none have yet appeared. I also have a very lively scene in Coventry, which is within reasonable travelling distance, but again most students seem quite happy to confine their expertise to the common room.

I shall try again when the new academic year starts in September.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Geoff

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Hand of Doom
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Post by Hand of Doom » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:53 pm

Fantastic discussion – we must ensure the energy generated is used positively

Some acknowledgements are called for -

To Geoff B – thanks for having the courage to start the debate

To Steviola – nice post – energy does to be turned onto action

To Rob D – I’m very concerned about your obsession with bottoms   :!:  :D  :!:

To The Barrels – I want to meet up with you guys - Barrels v Holywell?

To all those who used the F word. YES! This game should be about FUN. Personally I'm PROUD of being a drunken a**e playing the game in the way I enjoy with a smile on my face. Whereas I used to think it was the snake that put me off tournaments, I now realise it’s the mentality of the Win-at-all-costs dead-eyed brigade who will use one shot all the time and the snake just happens to be the best (but not only) example of this. It is a truly devastating shot!

I have one simple proposal which may be on interest – more of which later

First, I’ll be honest about my personal views about the snake –

1. Of course it’s a spin you muppets!
2. When I first saw this “shot” I was absolutely appalled to learn that the rules and definitions had been twisted to make it legal. Even worse, since then the table surface, player’s feet, and the balls have all been re-designed to favour the “shot”. Why not go the whole hog and reduce the 3-bar to a 1-bar? After all the other two ‘forwards’ have become redundant!
3. All this has been foretold in the story of Adam and Eve – look what happened once the snake appeared on the scene!
4. Its unnatural. Just look at the contortions the snakers go though – they should be made to hold their pint glass with their wrist!!
5. Its boring guys
6. For me, a form of hell is to look down a row of tables at a tournament only to see a “factory production” line of snakers
7. I can’t do it

So, in case you missed it, I am anti-snake.

However, I accept that its here to stay.


Anyway, my suggestion is simply to implement a rule that the 3-bar cannot score more than 2 goals of the same type per game. This is intended to reduce the predominance of any particular type of shot – not just the snake. Its a little similar to the restriction of bouncers per over in the game of cricket.

The thinking behind this is to –
a)  Promote a diversity of shots and skills
b)  Ensure all players have a range of shots (if their preferred shot isn't working they will have a Plan B)
c)  Find a solution that doesn’t outlaw a shot that is considered legal
d)  Find a solution that is independent of table-type
e)  Enable snakers and anti-snakers to play against each other
f)  Preserve the snake shot for those that have to have it for international duties
g)  Finally, and above all, to enable us all to unite on this matter, and focus our energies on the real issue - promotion of the game itself.

I’m now worried that this seems too simple to be true and I expect to be shot down in flames by the very next post!

Cheers
Bill O

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El Capitan
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Post by El Capitan » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:03 pm

Just to try to get in the next post after Bill to make sure he doesn't get flames...

God I love playing table footy with Bill. By far the best player I have ever seen play, and he knows I have modelled my play on his recently.

I also love the reaction of our opponents when we play them. The match we had against Paddy and Jon May was astonishing - the best game I've ever lost!

I see one major issue to the dreams of foosball:

1) School students, who love the game, but are too young for pubs and have no transport or money.

2) Uni students, who love the game, but have no money and little transport.

3) Adults, who like the game a lot (behind their family) and have money, transport, but little time.

There must be a solution...
Last edited by El Capitan on Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Bundy Volume 1
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Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:07 pm

Hand of Doom wrote:I’m now worried that this seems too simple to be true and I expect to be shot down in flames by the very next post!
lqtm, well wouldn't want to disappoint.
Hand of Doom wrote:Anyway, my suggestion is simply to implement a rule that the 3-bar cannot score more than 2 goals of the same type per game.
In principle I agree with this, I thought about proposing a very similar idea a few days ago - however practically I think it has some problems.
I have a hard enough time remembering how many I've scored - so in a heated game there's no chance I'd be able to remember how many of each shot I had scored with.
Sure this could be solved by having a referee at each match, but with 10/12+ table tournaments that's going to be very hard to run smoothly, and I'm not even sure if currently possible.
However, if solutions to all obv problems could be found, then I think it would be a great addition to the game for am's and pro's alike. It would make games more varied and 'interesting' to the viewer, and would force n00bs (and boring 1 dimensional people like myself) to develop a greater shot range thus become better players.
I love the potential tactical side most though. People will always have a favored shot - and choosing whether to use it early to try to build a lead/the last 2 goals when the pressure is on - I think it would be very interesting for the player.
Last edited by Bundy Volume 1 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jonathan may
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Post by Jonathan may » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:13 pm

El Capitan wrote:I also love the reaction of our opponents when we play them. The match we had against Paddy and Jon May was astonishing - the best game I've ever lost!
Bill was utterly unplayable in that match. 100% on the 5 using tictac chips from every single man, and close to 100% on the 3 using, well, ..? everything?? Shame you switched at the end. :lol: (sorry JW). I don't think anyone else even took us to four sets, let alone five!
--
Manager, TeamGB.

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Bundy Volume 1
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Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:40 pm

CannonBallGuy wrote:Some stuff
Mac, there will always be some issues when you attempt to get heavily involved with a debate as active as on this tread having never attended a tournament. Due to this - and I hope you will agree with me here - you do not have the experience of the national foos scene. You are in a relatively unique position on here of being outside of tournament play, having not long finished play in collage - thus there are some aspects where I am sure you could provide an interesting and important viewpoint which can be used - as you have proved earlier on in this thread.
Anything you write about the 'pro-scene' is going to be based on summaries of other people's posts, and through this is where mis-understandings can occur.
The other problem is that you have not met any of the people you are getting into arguments with. Along with many other reasons, I encourage you to come to tournaments to get to know everyone - they really are good people!  :D . Once you know them, and their characters, then you will see that (nearly always) no-one means any offense in what they say on britfoos, they say it because thats just who they are. Rob may have strong views - and is not afraid to state them bluntly - but he really is a lovely man  :lol: and with an understanding of this how you read his posts will differ, hopefully, from the quite negative image you seemingly have.
Hope this has made sense to you
Joe

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Hand of Doom
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Post by Hand of Doom » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:10 pm

John/Jon,

That was a really great FUN match because it was played in the right sporting spirit by both teams with a great variety of shots. That's what we need to aim for for the game in general.

Thanks very much for you kind, if exaggerated, comments.
:wink:
HoD

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Hand of Doom
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Post by Hand of Doom » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:32 pm

Steviola wrote:Rob Davey - I think you are completely out of place talking to someone like that with your "their opinion don't mean sh1t" attitude. its even worse when you talk to a new player like that on the forum - what the Bloop are you thinking? aren't you meant to be encouraging players by way of foos4fun?

Mac - you have to realise that this is not the only debate thats ever happened. People will naturally value some opinions over others (like Geoff's for instance) - you cannot and should not expect people to agree with everything that you say, especially as they don't know you personally or know what experience you have.
What is highly valued by me is your clear passion for the game and also your different viewpoint - that of someone having not been to a tournament before - because  this helps to form a more balanced argument.
Fairs fair.
Totally agree that we need views from all perspectives. I really welcome Mac's view as a refreshing change from the usual suspects. We can't afford to ignore the contribution brought by these views. Whether we agree with them or not we must respect them and the spirit in which they are offered.

Regards
Bill

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