Geoff Brice Newsletter discussion

Foosball chat / key issues and discussion
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DTG
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Post by DTG » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:17 pm

I've not said anything on the matter yet myself, but I feel I'm one of these target audience people that are currently greatly affected by what is being debated. Yes, I have been to one tournament (the first Holywell) and largely it was enjoyable. I was playing atrociously foosball wise so people probably found there was no need to snake against me! I will say this though, I did find it boring watching most games since there was such a distinct lack of variety - many here agree the snake, used repeatedly, is boring.

On the other hand, I play (almost every week) regularly at the Purple Turtle in Reading (where we have a telescopic, pinny foot Coperto) and I love going there. We do have a few snakers, Raf and Ben of note but do they use this shot exclusively? Not at all. In fact most of the players use all kinds of different shots and it's this variety that really makes the game more appealing. Ben for example, has one killer shot, not sure what you'd call it but it's fast and effective but I still feel as though I have a chance. Against a well executed snake, this is not the case. I think in fact I'm happy to be beaten, even thrashed by somebody better than me provided they do it in a sporting, non-repetitive manner. As Geoff has said in his article, it really is all about the diversity and this school of thought that says "I need to win so I need to snake" is rather damaging at tournament level (I say tournament level because there is less desire to win at any cost at your local venue, it's about having fun) for the people trying to move their game from local play to tournament play. I agree wholeheartedly that there needs to be some sort of transition for tournament n00bs that haven't had a lot of exposure to the snake to be able to step up and compete within their own rank and at the same time still have fun when they're playing against much more talented opponents.

Some have suggested we run rank-specific events at tournaments without the snake, I think this would help and would prove interesting, although there are obvious problems regarding ranking here. Perhaps though, what we need to see more of are local events that add a more competitive edge to the games, much like the Reading doubles series that used to happen. These events highlight the people that do want to enhance their game and play competitively and also give people the opportunity to be eased into the highly competitive nature of table football. Sure, there will be more at stake, but hopefully the fun will still be there - and without the fear of going two and out and being severely out of pocket. Whether such events encourage the snake or ban it all together is another matter but I think the step up from pub play to tournament play is such a large one that we ought to have an intermediate step to help alleviate the costs and ruthlessness found at the national tournaments.

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Post by Rob Davey » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:48 pm

I make no apologies for my comments or my opinions - fact!

Geoff I never meant to offend you in any way ok.

I am Tornado fan who embraces the ITSF and tournament foosball.  I have fun playing and adapting my game to Garlando, Roberto Sport and Bonzini (to some degree).

I dislike telescopic glass top Garlandos and would never play at a tournament on them.  Slippery surfaces, balls that roll untrue and glass tops take away the skill factor for top players - that is ball control.

So let me put it a bit more delicately than I did before.

In my opinion that is ok if you are at a school age and are happy to play table football with your class mates and are not serious about developing a tournament game - OR have had a few beers with your buddies in the pub and want to have a laugh trying to knock a ball in a goal.

That might smack a little sarcastic - but it still means my opinion remains unchanged .

Anyway Geoff - let's be direct and realistic and step away from the ass kissers for the mo (see sometimes on a forum you write things you may not say to someone's face  :lol: )

Realistically I don't see a tournament scene supported by the BFA and the players we have attending at the moment - run on the telescopic Garlandos.  You cannot develop the control we need to play at our best on those tables.

It's a bit like asking Steve Davis to play on a kiddies xmas toy.

And before the ass kissers start posting a) I don't consider myself the Steve Davis of the foosball world and b) THIS IS MY OWN OPINION!!!!

Take your lips off from Geoff's bum.

You have a pool of players at your schools who cannot afford to travel to tournaments around the UK and who probably do not know anything of the bfa or the ITSF.

You don't want them to mix with us because we shoot the snake.

Tournament players will never stop shooting the snake (unless it is banned) and so it looks like a stalemate - mate  :wink:

My question to you is what benefit can you take from introducing your players to the wider foosball scheme?

If you can find some - go for it and ask the BFA for help.  If not don't waste your time with it.

I'll still be here - loving Tornado, looking forward to Warrior, playing tournaments, hating and avoiding glass top telescopic garlando, supporting the BFA and the ITSF.

Chill out mate

Rob

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Post by Mogwai » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:00 pm

My view on the "factions" in the UK. I believe they fall into a few categories:

1. "1 table wonders"-1TW

Players who will only play tournaments or at venues with their favourite table type. Most of these fall into the Tornado (T) or Blocky Foot Garlando (BFG) camps. Not many World Cup Garlando (WCG) one table wonders due to how new the table is and how much of a hybrid it has become.

In the multi-table era most of this type of player seem not to come to come to tournaments as much. The BFGs-1TW stopped coming when the WCG took over as the tournament table. Despite a high number of T competitions alot of T-1TWs have also disappeared from the scene. I think this is due to the new generation of multi-table player taking over with a broader skill set and lots of short term tournament experience.

2. ITSF-only
Through rod, open top table players only but don't mind the type and quite like or don't mind the challenge of swapping between tables. Do not enjoy playing on tables where control is hindered or visiblility impaired.

3. Table Football Lovers
People who love all tables, all competition, no matter the table. Tournament regulars who still don't mind going down to a pub for a couple of hours of FAS (for example).

I don't know what the percentages would be for active tournament goers and Britfoos contributors, probably less that 15% for 1 table wonders now (used to be higher). I would say the rest may be split somewhere down the middle for 2 and 3 but even then theses are two extremes. There are probably plenty of people that don't mind BFGs for knock abouts but if push came to shove wouldn't spend money on travelling to tournaments on them. Hard to gauge really.

I think it is inevitable that we have a range of views and people must accept that. What I do hope is that the number of people with the view that anything not ISTF is simply a "toy table" requiring no skill is not too high, simply because to win on it requires different skill sets and a different style of play to what they are used to.

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Post by robmoss2k » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:01 pm

Rob Davey wrote:So I am sincerely sorry to those of you who thought this was a dictatorship or that free speech did not exist here on this forum or in fact in the UK.
We don't have freedom of speech in the UK. Just off the top of my head, there's incitement to racial hatred, incitement to religious hatred, glorifying terrorism, and of course the strictest libel/slander laws in Western Europe - which your opinion no doubt would fall under if you'd named anyone.

Anyway, for what it's worth, my favourite table is still a block-foot telescopic Garlando, and I sincerely hope we use that table type for the next Oxford Open if there ever is another one. With no snaking. At all. No doubt I won't get my wish due to the elitists.
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Post by Jonathan may » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:05 pm

In my opinion,
Rob Davey wrote:Sarcastic, opinionated, and offensive crap
Sorry Rob, you can't state that something isn't intended to offend, and then tell people to get their "lips off Geoff's bum". People have their reasons for supporting Geoff's argument. They have made the effort to argue for those reasons. Many good points have been made throughout this discussion. Because they happen to disagree with you, and agree with Geoff, this does not make them ass-lickers, or whatever other delicate and eloquent insult you choose.

And for the second you actually were civil, you wrote this:
Rob Davey wrote:Realistically I don't see a tournament scene supported by the BFA and the players we have attending at the moment - run on the telescopic Garlandos.  You cannot develop the control we need to play at our best on those tables.
1. The BFA's job is to support whatever the community wants. This job will never change.
2. The community defines what the BFA does (see point 1) and I totally disagree with your comments about tournaments run on telescopic Garlandos. I think the response here, and elsewhere, proves categorically that there would be great attendance. You personally can choose to stay away if you like...
3. And your point about developing the control needed to play on those tables is just a lie. Most of this community developed their control on those tables... I don't want to get into a slanging match, and I won't, but if you can't control the ball on those Garlandos, you need more practice. It's possible to do pretty much anything on them that you can do on a through rod pinny table. Including walking snakes. Walking front-pins. Pull shots, pull kicks, push kicks, brush passes, chip passes, slingshots... If you don't believe me, next time I'm in the vicinity of a blocky telescopic Garlando, I'll film the whole lot for you.
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Post by Boris » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:18 pm

To clarify my views re block-foot tables:

1   I learned my game, like most others, on slick-glass block-foot telescopic tables (Brighouse), and missed out on the TS competitions because I simply didn't know they were happening.  Like most block-foot players, when I first re-entered tournaments I found the Tornado table difficult to adjust to at first, but got used to it fairly quickly.  I encouraged Geoff to hold tournaments and develop a Garlando ranking system, and he held official BFA tournaments in Bath in 1999 (Pig & Fiddle), and 2000 (Pelican Stroud, Hat & Feather Bath & Pig & Fiddle Bath) - the latter won by Adam and Louis from Canada using the snake shot on block-foot.  The last BFA tournaments by Geoff were held in Spring 2003, with separate amateur and open tournaments at the Hat & feather on successive weekends.

2   The Oxford III tournament in 2001 (the first unofficial world championships) highlighted the problems with the traditional table, and Garlando asked me (and others) to help them develop a new foot shape which would have a widespread appeal, and make other changes (getting rid of long springs) to improve the playability.  The through-rods were introduced at the instigation of the Austrians (who had been previously using through-rod blocky-tables), and I must admit these were a huge improvement in my opinion and in the opinions of most established tournament players.  The snake was not my prime consideration here, more the front-pin which for the first time could be used reliably by players other than Frederic.

3   The new tables made their debut in Oberwart in April 2002 which was attended by myself, Dan Gallon and Richard Thompson, before the first official World Championships later that year.  At the time players were using a wide variety of shots, notably tap-bangs and tic-tacs, few were shooting the snake or front-pin.  The Austrians also produced a set of international Garlando rules which introduced the tornado-style passing rule, and also banned 5-bar hacks from the kick-off.

4   The first UK tournament using the new tables was Reading in 2003 (the 'Grudge Match' tourney), which attracted a then-record turn-out.  This was the last tournament that most of Geoff's players attended, and the first Garlando tournament to attract a significant proportion of the Tornado player-base.  It appeared that we had hit on a winning formula, and turnouts to later WC-Garlando events were also well up on either block-foot Garlando or Tornado table equivalents in 2004/05.  Oxford continued to use block-foot tables in 2004/05, but players were starting to complain about the playability of many of the local tables.

5   In June 2004 a group of players ordered 4x WC tables to facilitate tournaments - also full sets of telescopic rods (blocky and pinny) were ordered to allow the tables to be flexible - in the event only organisers at Oxford and the Hereford No-Snake Open carried on using block-foot tables.  These tables stayed in use until Liverpool 2007 when they reverted to their 'owners' or were sold off by their 'owners'.

6  The pin-foot tables make controlling and pinning the ball much easier, whilst still allowing 'traditional' shots to be used.  The big advantage of through rods is that they do not 'chafe' on the inner rod, Geoff might service his tables regularly but the majority of operators do not, and as a result pub tables frequently become seized up and unplayable, leading to their removal from sites.  Note that when I asked the leading coin-op industry insurers if they had ever had a personal injury claim from through-rod tables they stated they had not (in a day when Tornado, Lowen and clone-type tables were relatively common in commercial sites).

7  The current prevalence of block-foot tables in commercial sites is largely due to Geoff's influence, as a major customer of the main importer/distributor who as a result decided to keep telescopic block-foot as their standard commercial model.  As a result, the majority of commercial sites are not exposed to pin-foot play, and operators are unaware of the alternative, perpetuating the situation where pub players are not used to tournament tables.  However for the past 5 years or so the vast majority of home-play Garlando tables have had pin-feet (albeit with telescopic rods).

8  I can see the benefits of young players learning on block-foot tables precisely because the ball can be so difficult to control, leading to players developing good control skills as part of their all-round game (if you can control the ball on block-foot Garlando you can control it on any table), however they do not facilitate pinning the ball, so players are unlikely to attempt a low-percentage strategy to learn to shoot pin-shots on such a table (whether 'euro-pin' or 'snake').  As pin-shots are the mainstay of the professional and international scene, players not exposed to them or able to learn (and defend) them enter tournaments at a competitive disadvantage.  

9  I can understand the frustration of Geoff's players when faced with someone trying to shoot a snake on a block-foot table, as it can take forever to set the ball up properly (and I suspect time limits are not enforced in such circumstances), if his players, or a significant proportion of them, continue to use the snake regardless then the harder he makes the shot to perform (e.g. via slick-glass tables) the worse this problem will become.  Britain is not China, and any youngster with internet access can find out about the snake from any number of websites, so his problem is not going to go away simply by discouraging his players from contact with the BFA.

10  I have known Geoff for about 9 years and would like to think we are still friends - I bear him no personal animosity and respect his enthusiasm and the contribution he has made to the game, and particularly the young players the majority of whom are his 'alumni'.  

11  I understand and to an extent share Geoff's concerns at the dominance of the snake shot, unfortunately it cannot be 'uninvented' and is too well-established internationally for any rule-change to be successful - Larry Davis's response would not be unique among foreign associations.  Whilst I will lobby for a rule change to ban the snake, I do not hold out much hope of a successful outcome.

12  Geoff has indicated here that holding no-snake events alongside those using the official rule-set would not address his concerns, as 'his' players would still be exposed to it and 'infect' their local sites upon their return (I stress that am paraphrasing here before I am accused of misquoting).  The alternative would be to hold no-snake tournaments, or even amateur-only tournaments where the snake is banned.  

13  The greatest contribution Geoff could make to the future of the game would be to take responsibility for running the UK Junior championships.  Provided the rules he uses are as compatible as possible with the international rules (e.g. re serve, dead ball etc) then banning the snake shot from this series of events would be a small price to pay.  The singles and doubles champions would then qualify as UK champions (and wild-cards where available) for the ITSF World Championships.

14  There have been complaints and observations this year that there have been too many ranking tournaments, forcing many players to pick and choose their events leading to reduced turnouts across the board.  In the coming season there are proposals to limit the number of ranking tournaments and insisting they are at least one month apart (or 6 weeks in the case of tournaments on the same table type).  Running a second-level series of 'no-snake' tournaments with a separate ranking system under BFA sanction or otherwise could be an option, if there is sufficient demand to make these viable.  

15  Similarly, there has been little take-up of BFA Ranking Tour events (regular local tournaments - between 3 and 12 a year which have secondary ranking status for the series as a whole) which were intended to encourage competitive play at a more grass-roots level.

There we go, I hope I haven't insulted anyone.  I dearly wish Geoff will see this discussion as constructive, and hope we can have a closer working relationship - snake or no snake.  However the BFA is democratic and if players want to change the status quo there is always the option of standing for committee at the AGM, or even just attending general meetings to vote on policy issues.  Note that the rules on commercial interests - which prevented Geoff from being elected to the committee in the past, have been relaxed, so now only chairman and treasurer cannot have significant commercial interests in the game (defined as more than two commercial sites).

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Post by Mogwai » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:36 pm

Rob Davey wrote:Slippery surfaces, balls that roll untrue and glass tops take away the skill factor for top players - that is ball control.
This doesn't have to be a pre-requisite for table football. Just the version that YOU are used to playing, on a table that is built to enhance this stereotype.

You would be creamed by a half decent al-volo player in Italy playing by THEIR rules, which are just a ridiculous to us as the ITSF extensive rule set is to them (a spin is not a spin in certain cases!), on THEIR table type which suits their style of play. Are they simply drunken hackers and school kids too?
robmoss2k wrote:With no snaking. At all. No doubt I won't get my wish due to the elitists.
C'mon Bobby, don't lower yourself to that kind of ridiculous comment. The people that control the Oxford Open are the OUTFC not the "elitists" (who are they anyway!?!?).

I'm sure if someone got in touch with Isis and asked if they could put on another block foot event then it could be done. However the reason we got the free support every year was because it was on the exact weekend of the year when they collected all their tables from the colleges to take them back to the warehouse for the summer. It still was a great favour to us from them but not as much of a pain as getting them all out and back into the colleges for a weekend. If you can get the support from OUTFC from this then it can be done but Isis tables have now ended up being quite a mix of old blocky foot and various incarnations of the WCG (although I think all could be converted to blocky foot if the conversion kits are still there). It would also have to be the Saturday of 8th week in Trinity term (end of June), during exam time.

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Post by robmoss2k » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:37 pm

Boris wrote:the BFA is democratic and if players want to change the status quo there is always the option of standing for committee at the AGM
Noted. Carefully.
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Post by robmoss2k » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:43 pm

Mogwai wrote:C'mon Bobby, don't lower yourself to that kind of ridiculous comment. The people that control the Oxford Open are the OUTFC not the "elitists" (who are they anyway!?!?).
Apologies, you're entirely right. Just getting a little frustrated with certain people. When I say elitists... just the people who think that the "other" table and the "other" style of play is inferior, only played by drunks and children, a style apparently incapable of producing a good player. And I know Rob Davey isn't alone in taking that view, there are a good 20 or 30 here who I'm sure would say exactly the same thing if they were the same size as Rob is.

OUTFC people, whoever you are, can we please beg Isis to put on a block-foot event on Saturday of 8th week in Trinity next year?
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Post by Pete F » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:59 pm

leaks wrote:
The Mongoose wrote:Well done Jon, a bottle of bubbly is on its way! I note Oliver Deakin was technically the first, but as he was just guessing I’m sure he will agree you deserve the pop.  
Doh! It was that post that I read that made me guess Rob Davey (Evidenced by my saying "but Dave Z commended the post, although possibly sarcastically"), but I decided not to quote it so it didn't cause further offence! But I agree, Jon does deserve the bubbly just for being Jon :)
You should be used to not getting champagne by now! ;)  (Where is Shovo in this discussion?)
13  The greatest contribution Geoff could make to the future of the game would be to take responsibility for running the UK Junior championships.  Provided the rules he uses are as compatible as possible with the international rules (e.g. re serve, dead ball etc) then banning the snake shot from this series of events would be a small price to pay.  The singles and doubles champions would then qualify as UK champions (and wild-cards where available) for the ITSF World Championships.
I like the idea of this but wouldn't they then just get creamed by non-UK players who were all shooting snake?
OUTFC people, whoever you are, can we please beg Isis to put on a block-foot event on Saturday of 8th week in Trinity next year?
It was the loss of St Catz as a venue which scuppered that date; I don't know if they're amenable to hosting an event again in future at that time.  Riley's wasn't a bad venue at all, though.

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Post by The Mongoose » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:24 pm

Just a few quick points - I'm finding it difficult to keep up!

1.Bobby Moss
Ref the UK having the strictest libel laws in Western Europe. You are quite right, and there is most definitely a clear libel in these posts which would be easily proven in any court. In fact, it meets some of the criterea for a conviction for 'malicious falsehood' - a much more serious offence.'

Another bottle of bubbly if anyone can spot perpetrator/victim?

2.Cotty
Ref "I'd like to know what compromises you are willing to make for everyone to meet it the middle."
How's this for a start.....

3.Rob Davey
Sarah and Louise are hosting a foosball party on the 16th. we will have all three table types up. You are welcome to come along and we can have a few games and discuss our differences over a pint.

Can I just ask you to clarify a few points ...
You say my FT's have "slippery surfaces." All of my 7 Garlando WS models have exactly the same sand-blasted rough surface as the telescopic ones. The playfilds are all identical. What am I missing here?

Why must the balls roll untrue? Again the WS models come with the same balls as the telescopic ones. In fact I vary mine according to the site and always experiment. I am currently using the new 'speed-balls' in some sites, for example, to assess player approval. I also have several sets of 'magic balls' out. Unfortunately, because they have a matted surface they absorb oil from the rods like a sponge and the FT consequently needs much more maintenance for the same number of games.

We hate glass tops just as much as you - but students will stuff the goals as soon as I have left their common room without them. They are a necessary evil in my schools, but as soon as we get together down the Barrels the glass is off in seconds!

So why don't you come along on the 16th. The drinks will be on me and, who knows, you might find we have more in common than you think.

Geoff

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Post by Graeme » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:36 pm

robmoss2k wrote:OUTFC people, whoever you are, can we please beg Isis to put on a block-foot event on Saturday of 8th week in Trinity next year?
As Dave says it's not ideal because of being right at the end of exam term. Virtually all the current committee are undergrads and so that makes organising a tournament in Trinity difficult.

Regarding Catz, I don't expect to be able to use their JCR/bar area for free again. Their new site manager (not sure of the exact name of the position) was keen on charging us not insignificant amounts for holding doubles/singles cuppers events lasting only a few hours...

Isis doesn't have as many tables in colleges as it used to, party because of colleges buying their own tables (which Jee Ha encouraged last year).

I need to talk to Isis about some other things once next term starts, I'll try and get an up-to-date table inventory from them.

Personally I'm not in favour of holding a blocky-foot tournament but if there's enough interest I'll look into it.

This post probably belongs in the Event Organisers forum.
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Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:41 pm

The Mongoose wrote:Another bottle of bubbly if anyone can spot perpetrator/victim?
Erm....is this really the best thing to be doing? Don't want things to turn into a witch hunt. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and should not be 'villainised' for doing so. I'm sure that you have received such treatment in the past/in this tread etc (I assume, don't want to speculate over specifics) however my mummy told me that two wrongs don't make a right :) . Everyone who is posting on here is a reasonable person, so problems would be best sorted out in private/in a constructive manner on here.
The Mongoose wrote:So why don't you come along on the 16th. The drinks will be on me and, who knows, you might find we have more in common than you think. Geoff

If I voice broad disagreement over all your beliefs, can I have free drink too?  :lol:

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Post by Jonathan may » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:46 pm

RE Malicious falsehood...?
I must also comment on Boris’s reply because it contains some glaring inaccuracies. He stated that “My biggest problem with Geoff is his failure to encourage competitions at youth level…” This is an absolutely outrageous statement and breathtaking untrue. I would remind Boris of my 2006 piece where I wrote “In 2005 I hosted 44 competitions that were attended by 2638 students, 368 of which were females.  It seemed to me that my money was better spent this way than further enriching Rob Atha.”
Boris also stated “he now admits he has been actively discouraging his players from becoming involved with the BFA…”  This is what was actually written “Whereas before I have freely given out details of the BFA website and encouraged students to use it, I now intend…” Rather a big difference, I think.
Dunno. Oli, if this is right, it's your bottle...
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Post by Famous Al » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:53 pm

The Mongoose wrote: You say my FT's have "slippery surfaces." All of my 7 Garlando WS models have exactly the same sand-blasted rough surface as the telescopic ones. The playfilds are all identical. What am I missing here?

Geoff
I think he's referring to this:
I shall reverse the playing field to leave the smooth side uppermost
I hope Rob takes up your offer.

If you show him how much fun blocky can be, maybe we can revive the Barrs Court Sundays now they have a new table.  :wink:

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Debate

Post by Oatsey » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:44 pm

A fascinating debate and a wealth of differing views at which no one should get offended or upset as life is too short in my view.

I remember when myself and Juan Martine (bottle of bubbly for those who know who that is :lol: ) finally discovered foosball was alive and not as completely dead as we thought after 25 years of not playing!!!
We went and played every week in bath at Geoffs pubs , the pig and fiddel and hat and feather. We had a great time and thouroghly enjoyed ourselves on blocky foot which is different but still skilful. We rapidly reaquired some of our old skills and entered tournaments coming second to Rhys and Dave Z in Stoud and winning Oxford at some point I think!

even amongst block foot tables there are different aspects e.g. the smooth glass surface combined with the hideous orange balls!!

This is IN MY OPINION a highly unsatisfactory unskillfull sort of game .

However blocky foot on sand blasted surface with decent balls is great and fun to play and myself and martyn always enjoyed it.

All foosball is generally fun and tournaments are overrated, especially  if you just want to have fun. The point of a tournament is to try to compete and to do better than last time, beat more people and possibly even win.

I personally do not give a monkies about the ITSF and whether an event is ITSF or not , however I do like to hold events where people enjoy them selves  and try to recreate the fantastic atmosphere / events of the UK in the 70,s and TS days. Sadly this has not happened yet!

I started Foos4fun soley because otherwise with the demise of Crown there would have been no one to supply tables to have events on. Had Crown or anyone else such as Geofff, Excell etc been supplying tables to have signififcant events on I would not have bothered.

Now we have the Garlando table scheme there are too many events (8 in 6 months is ridiculous with our player base!).

I would willingly hold a blocky foot Garlando event alongside a Tornado event no prob if someone would actually supply all the tables, set them up , take them down etc .

So whats the point  of this post , the point is all foosball is fun on virtually any table, most tables have some skill element (except Harvard!!)  and Tournaments are for competing against others on the table (fun off it yes of course) so attract that type of person who wants to become more skillfull and get to the top/win as the goal. These will always want a level of consistency of play on a table hence why certain table types / features are prefferred by them.  In addition a regular and consistent supply of the
table type concerned also drives what table events are on. If I had formed Foos4fun on Blocky telescopic and kept 10 in a storehouse just for events we would probably have  more of them don't forget this aspect.

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Re: Debate

Post by robmoss2k » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:11 pm

Oatsey wrote:I remember when myself and Juan Martine (bottle of bubbly for those who know who that is :lol: )
The guy who lives in Minneapolis now?
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Post by Richard » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:56 pm

Wow this is a long debate. My observations will be to the point.

1) Geoff suffers from being a businessman so what affects his players is key to his views. He thinks the BFA should cater for him not the BFA's own members. He thinks players / organisers should not be allowed to put their time and effort into promoting tables that he does not like (ie Reading). He is disillusioned like a mad genius.

2) Geoff is aware of how the pub chains are killing the pub scene, whilst changing habits, computer games, drugs and rock'n'roll are causing schools and unis to decline also. This has to do with changing habits, and has nothing to do with the snake (by his own admission only 1/3 of his players "know of" the snake and he mainly uses blocky/slippy tables). The snake is being made a complete snakegoat.

3) The only section of foos that has done well over the last 5 years is the pro-end, which has clearly developed rapidly. This is due to availability of high quality tournament tables. Geoff's "solution" to the wider problem, by converting tables to slipppy glass/blocky feet, will just alienate the last remenants of a foos community. This would be the final nail in the table.

4) Geoff has spent 5 years doing the most comprehensive survey ever recorded to prove something he was absolutely convinced about 5 years ago. He has now decided to ban the snake in his venues. Could your efforts not have been better spent? fighting for world peace perhaps?? [EDIT: or perhaps just banning the snake 5 years ago and reaping the benefits]

5) The one area of Table Football that is still growing is homeplay tables. The BFA is keen to see punters buy tables with round balls, stable legs, and surfaces that are good to learn on, and to give players access to similarly good tables at tournaments when they take competition to a higher level. My suggestion: ignore the pubs and bars, because in the current market there is no play like homeplay.
Last edited by Richard on Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by robmoss2k » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:53 pm

Rich, I expect better from you. Especially considering that there are approximately zero people ranked below Pro who would deliberately avoid no-snake tournaments.

Point 2 there was particularly retarded. Nothing to do with the snake? People would not be asking Geoff to ban the snake or waiting until the snakers had finished playing before they'll get on the table if the snake had nothing to do with it.

And point 3... no. Short-sighted. The pro side of table football is in decline in the UK, and rapidly so. We all know this, because we see our tournament attendances declining, we see people giving up because they're bored of the scene after only a year or two from leaving uni. We have a debate going trying to work out how we can save the pro game, never mind everyone else's. And yet the pro side of the game is improving, is it? Hmmm.

Point 4... Geoff was absolutely convinced about this 5 years ago because he was right, and there's egg on your face, my face and everyone else's face who ever suggested to him that what he was hearing from his ten thousand players - not our one hundred players - might be wrong. He was right then and he's right now, and I'll happily stand here and say I was wrong then.

Point 5 is one I'd like to see some evidence for, that looks very much like a random assumption to me.

Point 1 is completely stupid and ignores every fact going and if I were Geoff I would take some serious f'ing offence at that. He's already said he doesn't need to make a penny out of it and that he doesn't like being lied to and duped, how the f'ing hell did you come up with that bollocks?

I suspect, Rich, that you have some sort of veiled vendetta against Geoff. Maybe there's a bit of history there. I personally think that you're being a bit of a cock and setting yourself up for some serious flaming. Let the flame war begin, that deserves it.
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Post by CannonBallGuy » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:57 pm

Richard wrote:Wow this is a long debate. My observations will be to the point.

1) Geoff suffers from being a businessman so what affects his players is key to his views. He thinks the BFA should cater for him not the BFA's own members. He thinks players / organisers should not be allowed to put their time and effort into promoting tables that he does not like (ie Reading). He is disillusioned like a mad genius.
No, as I see it, Geoff is a fantastic bloke who is trying to do what is in the best interest for his thousands of players, rather than the 50 odd regular tournament attendees who, on the whole, don't seem to be doing a lot to get large numbers of new players at tournaments. (No offence intended, I'm sure several individuals have tried very hard indeed, but I don't think their efforts, even combined, could match Geoff's.).
Richard wrote:2) Geoff is aware of how the pub chains are killing the pub scene, whilst changing habits, computer games, drugs and rock'n'roll are causing schools and unis to decline also. This has to do with changing habits, and has nothing to do with the snake (by his own admission only 1/3 of his players "know of" the snake and he mainly uses blocky/slippy tables). The snake is being made a complete snakegoat.
Geoff did explain, if you read the article in the newsletter, that he was not placing all the blame of the decline in british foosball on the snake shot and he did in fact give various other reasons and suggestions for both the decline in british foosball and also for why he dislikes the snake oh so much.
Richard wrote:3) The only section of foos that has done well over the last 5 years is the pro-end, which has clearly developed rapidly. This is due to availability of high quality tournament tables. Geoff's "solution" to the wider problem, by converting tables to slipppy glass/blocky feet, will just alienate the last remenants of a foos community. This would be the final nail in the table.
Could this be because there are really only two very distinct ends to table football in the UK: The Pro end and Geoff's college end?
Besides, I don't recall Geoff demanding that all tables in the UK be converted. Rather, he (re-)raised the debate on whether or not the snake shot should be banned.
Richard wrote:4) Geoff has spent 5 years doing the most comprehensive survey ever recorded to prove something he was absolutely convinced about 5 years ago. He has now decided to ban the snake in his venues. Could your efforts not have been better spent? fighting for world peace perhaps??
Surely it is entirely up to Geoff as to how he spends his time? I'm sure he, and many others, feel he has spent it extremely well and that many are very thankful that he has done this so as we can back up opinions and ideas about the future of the sport in the UK with facts and figures.
Besides... have you spent 5 years fighting for world peace?
Richard wrote:5) The one area of Table Football that is still growing is homeplay tables. The BFA is keen to see punters buy tables with round balls, stable legs, and surfaces that are good to learn on, and to give players access to similarly good tables at tournaments when they take competition to a higher level. My suggestion: ignore the pubs and bars, because in the current market there is no play like homeplay.
I can't vouch for everyone in the UK, but I think I'm being fairly logical when I suggest that if there are no foosball tables in public places such as pubs, colleges, etc the nobody will be buying them for home use either.
I certainly would not be here now nor would I have my own foosball table, had it not been for Geoff placing two great tables in my college.
Perhaps if much more were done to advertise the game in the UK, people would hear about it and become interested that way - but I suspect only a very small minority would be prepared to either go to a tournament or spend hundreds of pounds on their own table without having played on one before (in a pub, or college, for example.).

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