UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Tournament announcements + Results + Match Reports
User avatar
davez
Posts: 4072
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:17 pm
Real Name: Dave Ziemann
Location: London, UK

UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by davez » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:01 pm

I think that the Liverpool tournament went very well in the end, and I am grateful to all involved. But I am sure that things still went wrong, some that may have been obvious to players, and others that perhaps were not.

I would like to see an honest appraisal of all the things that people know went wrong at Liverpool, major or minor, whle they are fresh in your mind, so that the causes can be identified, recorded and addressed.

I realise that I am asking for something quite difficult, namely, for those who were most involved and closest to the running to expose problems that they might have been involved in.

I think as a community we must be open about our mistakes, but then also tolerant and understanding of how they happened, otherwise we'll never fix them.

This thread could contain discussion, but I'll edit this post to contain just the topic titles, so they can be used as a checklist later.

I'll start with this:
* Pro Am format change
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

User avatar
Sampson
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:55 pm
Real Name: Luke Sampson
Location: Coventry

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Sampson » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:10 pm

I must admit, at the time, I was more than a little peeved that I had to wait 1.5 hours for my second OS game in the winner's bracket because I was waiting for Jet who had not yet arrived. Yes, he's a high ranked foreign player but, with the "strict" recall procedure that was in place, I question whether he would have been made to wait 1.5 hours if I happened to be late for a perfectly acceptable reason.

I think if we have a strict recall procedure in place, we should stick to it.

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:37 pm

I was asked to 'hold back' on calling the games of the arriving Germans. This is where 'recall' rules become iffy. I never actually called any of Jet and/or Charlie's OS games, so there was nothing to recall. I simply played other games on the available tables.

I cannot say that the length of time people had to wait to play them would have been any different if they had been there from 11am.

Patrick and Herbert were running later, and I did call, recall and scratch their OS games. I did this when it was noticeable that they were a few rounds behind and would start holding things up.

I am very much starting to feel that we fundamentally have too many events at tournaments. This is the position TOs have been put in though. Every time a proposed tournament schedule comes up in the EOG/TCC lacking a divisional event/'fun' event someone complains. As we do not have the 'healthiest' scene right now TOs feel they must cater to everyone's needs so that they all turn up, in order to have a good turn out. This has led to tournaments with huge numbers of events, which are impossible to finish 'early'. At Liverpool we finished on time with this situation, but with short formats, and pretty much the max turnout for number of available tables. Personally, I would rather fewer events with longer formats. But this also means that the 'bulk' of players who go out early/at the group stage will not play much later in the day. This is unpopular. I do not have an 'ideal' solution to this problem.

I did everything I could do 'simplify' the running of this tournament within the schedule I was provided with by the TO, and do not feel I could improve this significantly - even by not playing. The only event which started more than 10 mins after the scheduled start time was Pro-Am (I think it was 20 mins 'late'), where the delay was a result of discussion about what format needed to be used to prevent great delays to the tournament.

I am a little miffed Dave why you are bringing this up now, and why you raised several questions about the running of this tournament pre-event. The title of this topic is very annoying. Why not '2010/11/12 tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes". This would be a much better title. This tournament ran, significantly, more on time than the 2 largest tournaments of last year, where you made no such comments pre/post event. It may seem like you do not feel all tournament organisers are treated equally. I hope this is not the case. Just raising this so that it does not go down that root - it would not be wise to focus this discussion around 1 TO as that will not encourage them to do future tournaments.

Steviola
Posts: 2656
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:02 pm
Real Name: Stephen Lyall
Location: London

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Steviola » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:01 pm

I'm not sure I understand why you have written "our mistakes" when you really mean "organiser". It's a poor mask.

Whatever the intentions I think a thread like this would degenerate into a botching session, which will scare away the few remaining tournament organisers we have in the community. As a fairly prolific organiser, my stance is to learn from my experiences, but I would be shocked if everything went according to plan. I also think discussing every little thing that didn't go perfectly afterwards increases the pressure unnecessarily on organisers. I know the last thing I want to read after putting blood sweat and tears, let alone a stupid amount of time, into an event is to hear people moaning that they had to wait around for a bit.

User avatar
cmau
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:02 pm
Real Name: Meng
Location: Keele

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by cmau » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:04 pm

I think we are being a little over-critical here. I was not a fan of the SE Pro-Am event either but as Bundy has said, was it not done to cater to players such as yourself Dave, where you had to catch trains back?

I am in favour of divisional/fun events and at the same time I acknowledge that will mean shorter/worse formats. The key surely is to strike the right balance between number of events and quality of formats and I think that balance was there during the weekend.

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:06 pm

I very much agree with Steve.

Trust the process of tournaments going through the EOG + TCC, and those involved in running them. I know I have greatly improved at TD'ing tournaments with experience, and all those involved in tournaments will have been learning and improving too. Most TOs are smarter than I am anyway :wink:

FYI - I will always help any new TO/TD at their tournament and will do my best to teach them pre/during/post event - just as I have learnt from Steve, Boris, Jon, Tom, Dave M, Mase, Shovo etc over the years.

willhawkes
BFA General Secretary
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:31 am
Real Name: Will Hawkes

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by willhawkes » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:35 pm

From my point of view - recognising that I haven't been to a lot of tournaments - it appeared to run very well. Events seemed to be starting and finishing on time; we didn't seem to run too late in the evenings nor were we finishing too early; most tables had games playing on them most of the time; and personally I got more than enough action both in competitions and pick-up games to go home satisfied - although I can't speak for others. In the end the only event which was victim to a change was the Pro-Am being cut to SE, well if something had to take a hit, better that than having overruns on OD with people dropping out because there are trains to catch. Seems to me the only missing element is if the tournament software can help the TO in prioritising which match to call next in order to unblock other events.

So - glass half full - celebrate what went well and think about what can be done better next time.

Rytis Mitkus
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:44 am
Real Name: rytis

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Rytis Mitkus » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:44 pm

First of all, if you dont want to be late somewhere, do not enter all events, enter only those you really want to participate in.

Also I would change schedule a bit..


The thing I disliked A LOT:

Sunday OD. After we lost our match, which was winners final, there was approximately 7-9 teams left in the competition. And we had to wait 4-5 hours to play losers final. Event that started first at 11am, finished last at 9 pm??? with 35 entrants. When finally 4th or better game ha been played, suddenly people was said to play SS, SD, Pro-AM, and something else. so we had to wait 1,5-2 hours more. I am really sorry, but this is really stupid. how come the most important event of the day (at least for me) last for 10 hours with less teams than in some other events.

If you first would finish OD then players in it wouldnt clash in other events, which are mainly divisional events.

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:03 pm

Rytis Mitkus wrote:how come the most important event of the day (at least for me) last for 10 hours with less teams than in some other events.
Think the 'at least for me' sums up the situation here. Senior and Women's events are more important for those players, divisional events are more important for 'newer' players etc.

OD was finished at 8.25 - not bad I say. It also had the most entrants (35 teams) of any event that day.

There was a delay at the end due to Rob Davey being in all events - I have stated this and apologised for the initial mismanagement of this. However it is accepted Open events are spread over the course of the day in the UK. I assume this is the view in Lithuania too - as the tournament I went to had 16/18 teams (no more), and only took 2 hours less to complete with no other events that day (bar WS, JS).

Here, we aim for a reasonable finishing time. I know we achieved this at Liverpool. I am sorry though when people do have 'long' waits between games. It happens.

Rytis Mitkus
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:44 am
Real Name: rytis

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Rytis Mitkus » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:09 pm

the one you participated in had 20 OD and 32 OS teams. not forgeting the fact we had 6 tables.

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:10 pm

Of course, fair enough. Let's not get silly and pointlessly argue. My bad for bringing up other tournaments, poor show on my part there.

User avatar
davez
Posts: 4072
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:17 pm
Real Name: Dave Ziemann
Location: London, UK

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by davez » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:32 pm

Joe, I completely agree with your comment about my naming of the thread, and I apologise, and ask that a mod rename it accordingly please.

However, I am surprised by the reaction to my intentions and method here. For goodness sake. I say 'us' and 'our' because we are a community and we are all in this together. It doesn't matter who did what wrong or why. Let's grow up a bit.

Also we don't need to get into long discussion, attacks or defensiveness here. Let's just identify the the things we think went wrong, as a resource for future tournaments and then lets move on.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:33 pm

Have changed topic to "UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes"

User avatar
Sampson
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:55 pm
Real Name: Luke Sampson
Location: Coventry

Re: Liverpool Open - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Sampson » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:11 pm

Joe Bundy wrote:I was asked to 'hold back' on calling the games of the arriving Germans. This is where 'recall' rules become iffy. I never actually called any of Jet and/or Charlie's OS games, so there was nothing to recall. I simply played other games on the available tables.
Fair enough, I guess by the rules put in place this is above board but I don't expect lower ranked, UK resident players would have been given the same treatment which I think is wrong. I'm not criticising you, Joe or anyone else because I think the tournament as a whole ran really smoothly - I'm just pointing out potential improvement points, as Dave requested.

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:22 pm

I understand this has been a problem, more leniency has sometimes been given to higher ranked players than lower ranked about timing of games. This is obviously wrong.

However I don't think this is because of their rank, rather that they are known to organisers and those at the tournament. If someone lets me know that they/someone they know is running late I will try to accommodate this. Some brand new players though do not know any of the established tournament players, thus have no one to let know that they are running late.

At this event we had a comments box on the pre-reg (thank you Jon for giving me the idea after Manchester) where 2 new players said they would be there at 12. I was able to hold back their games because of this. This is one way to improve this situation, if anyone has any more then that would be great.

User avatar
Happyham
Posts: 1531
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:51 pm
Real Name: Joey 'Slackjaw Chavilton' Hamilton
Location: Nebraska - USA

Re: UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Happyham » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:44 pm

Why on earth is something like this not in table football chat!? FFS!

Or is this a UK tournament thats coming up?
I hated every minute of training, but I said "Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion."

Please subscribe/comment/support my blog at http://happyham1986.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Boris
BFA Treasurer
Posts: 9447
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 10:15 pm
Real Name: Boris Atha
Location: Liverpool
Contact:

Re: UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Boris » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:57 pm

The original schedule had os starting at 1pm sat, after am/pro singles to allow travelling players time to get there - this was clearly a problem for the german plyaers two of whom got stuck at stansted and then in traffic - wevheld their games as long as we reasonably could but had to forfeit them in tge end when it was clear they were still at least an hour away.

It is impossible to please all the people all of the time but in an itsf tpurnament itsf events take priority over divisional events.

There is an obvious trade off between longer formats or more events but i think people preferred the vhance to go in 4x divisional events rather than the usual two.

More generally i have been organising and running tournaments for 12 years and have a thick enough skin to tske the flak that inevitably comes with the position of TO, but i'm sure many potential organisers are put off eithrr in the first place or after their first tourney by the complaints they get! Maybe that is why we only had 5x tourneys in 2011 and no more yet confirmed for 2012...

User avatar
Jonathan May
BFA Committee Observer
Posts: 3817
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Real Name: Jonathan May
Location: London
Contact:

Re: UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Jonathan May » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:09 pm

Criticism has nothing to do with it.

Those of us organising tournaments are getting older, having less time and the "new blood" now need to step up and take on the job of running events.

Since I've been running events this has happened at least three times. When I first started we had Eddie et al running the odd Tornado event with Boris/JW/DG etc running Reading and a few others. The second generation for me was the Oxford/Cambridge years. Then Warwick and Ben Mason came along with some successful events. Then more recently Joe Bundy/Rich Potts/Bath/Keele/Darlington etc. Obviously some have continued on, such as myself, Mase, Boris... but there are generational things going on here... I've missed plenty of events out here (Bush, Southampton, Tich in London etc), but you get the idea.

Running tournaments is very hard work, but I simply do not believe that criticism is discouraging organisers. It isn't discouraging me or Mase or Boris, and whilst it might discourage Joe to an extent, he still does it. I don't think it's responsible for no recently Oxford/Cambridge events - I think that's just a question of there not being anyone willing to put the effort in.

I believe there are organisers planning events as we speak from the new generations of players - possibly the Cambridge scene, hopefully Keele/Warwick etc. That's where you now need to look for events, as those are the scenes with new enthusiastic players with the time and the drive to bring tournaments to their local area.
--
Manager, TeamGB.

User avatar
Bundy Volume 1
BFA Regional Rep - London
Posts: 3258
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:13 pm
Real Name: Joe Bundy
Location: Liverpool

Re: UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:11 pm

Jonathan May wrote:I believe there are organisers planning events as we speak from the new generations of players - possibly the Cambridge scene, hopefully Keele/Warwick etc. That's where you now need to look for events, as those are the scenes with new enthusiastic players with the time and the drive to bring tournaments to their local area.
Cambridge and Warwick seem to have dates confirmed - EOG will hear about them in the next few days I hope. Keele want to do a tournament, but need to get their act together!

User avatar
shovie
Posts: 2696
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2003 2:16 pm
Real Name: Alex Shovelton
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: UK tournaments - Let's learn from our mistakes

Post by shovie » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:01 pm

Does no one remember events on paper charts with 5 tables finishing at 5am?

Chill out people, everyone's doing very well.

Alex

Post Reply