BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

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Happyham
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Happyham » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:52 pm

What point did I miss, Jon?
I hated every minute of training, but I said "Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion."

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Bundy Volume 1
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:17 am

Joe - by 'published' ranking I believe people mean the UK resident players who have a placing next to their name, i.e 3 Hamilton Joe M GBR 3375 Pro-Master unlike the overseas players who appear as n/a Mitkus Rytis M LTU 2317 Pro.

By removing you from the 'published' list then Tom would still be UK no. 2 despite not being able to attend as many high point MS/International ITSF events as you are and not worry about you overtaking him (though I blame his usually losing to Jon for you closing the points gap :P ). You would still have 3375 points, while continuing to gain points in America, and would be seeded as such at any UK event you attended - but you wouldn't appear as 'UK no. 3' in the UK rankings list.

Though I did love your long post. If nothing else all of this was worth it for that. I've missed them. x

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davez
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by davez » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:34 am

I also wonder what point Joe missed. He certainly nailed "A" point, which is that the current system cannot be used to mechanically identify the top players who are eligible to represent the UK internationally. Whether that's "the" point is up to you I suppose.

Another main point (which took a long time to surface), is the distinction between ranking (where you are) and filtering (who is included in the (or a) list). Ranking is about accurate methods for assessing relative player ability. Filtering is more about what you intend to use the list for.

Joe, the basic reason you are completely wasting your time (and why I rarely engage in ranking discussions any more) is exemplified by this point:
Happyham wrote:To me the UK rankings isn't about 'who plays the most UK tournaments, or who supports the UK scene the most'. Its about ranking the UK players as accurately as possible.
The system we use doesn't do this, doesn't attempt to do it, doesn't claim to do it, and is as a result unfit for the most important purposes.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Bundy Volume 1
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:00 am

Joe Bundy wrote:Though I did love your long post. If nothing else all of this was worth it for that. I've missed them. x
I take this back. Now your post has started a ranking debate Dave Z has got involved in. Damn you :wink:

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davez
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by davez » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:29 am

Ha ha, relax, I'm done!
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Happyham
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Happyham » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:42 pm

davez wrote:I also wonder what point Joe missed. He certainly nailed "A" point, which is that the current system cannot be used to mechanically identify the top players who are eligible to represent the UK internationally. Whether that's "the" point is up to you I suppose.

The system we use doesn't do this, doesn't attempt to do it, doesn't claim to do it, and is as a result unfit for the most important purposes.
Dave, am I right in saying that you share my opinion of what the ranking list should do? I couldn't quite tell.

Anyways, thanks Joe for clarifying the published vs non published situation. After I posted, I realised this was probably the case, but I feel my point still stands. I don't think I missed any point. The ranking list should be something that all UK citizens have a right to be on, and should be proud of where they stand. If people asked me where I stand in the UK rankings, I would be proud to tell them, and show them I am the 2nd/3rd* (Just for you Tom :wink: ) best foosball player (currently) from the United Kingdom.

I was obviously mistaken when I thought you were simply gonna remove players completely from the rankings after 3 years of inactivity, so I take back my argument about seedings. My point above still stands though.

Jon, you made a point that you don't think international tournament results should be used when ranking UK players in the UK ranking list. I think my post let you know what I thought of that.

You made a point that ITSF tournaments benefit those with time/money to go to them, therefor people can 'buy' their way up the rankings.

Its the same in the UK rankings. I remember when Tom was POY because he went to EVERY tournament and rob went to like 2. To Rob, time was more important than money probably. That's always going to happen, and I think that if somehow the ITSF tournaments were given a lighter weighting, then it wouldn't be a big deal.

The womens number 1 spot in tennis lately seems to be held always by whoever attends the most tournies throughout a year.

The bottom line is, for the most part, the more tournaments you attend, the more rankings points you will achieve. That's applicable whether its more UK tournies than someone, OR international tournaments. I see nothing wrong with that. Ranking points rewarded for skill and passion. In any sport where individuals/teams can compete in more tournaments than another individual/team you're going to have a problem of people 'buying' their way up the rankings.

The player of the year rankings show who the successful UK players are in UK tournaments, I see no reason why the UK ranking list can't include all UK/ITSF tournaments to show who the top UK players are full stop.


*Massively definitely UK number 2
I hated every minute of training, but I said "Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion."

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Jonathan May
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Re: BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

Post by Jonathan May » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:04 pm

This is boring because every single point has been raised countless times before.

The reason the system is broken is because it isn't Elo.

Can we stop this now? I mentioned the E word.
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davez
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by davez » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:56 pm

Happyham wrote:Dave, am I right in saying that you share my opinion of what the ranking list should do? I couldn't quite tell.
I can't tell either Joe, because I agree with this:
Happyham wrote:To me the UK rankings isn't about 'who plays the most UK tournaments, or who supports the UK scene the most'. Its about ranking the UK players as accurately as possible.
..but not with this:
Happyham wrote:The bottom line is, for the most part, the more tournaments you attend, the more rankings points you will achieve. ... I see nothing wrong with that.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Happyham
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Re: BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

Post by Happyham » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:16 pm

Haha! Well as long as I know what I mean when I say those two things.

Dave, you crack me up.

I feel you took that second part out of context, as it was my way of trying to say that there is ALWAYS going to be a level of buying your way up the rankings!!

Anyways, I'm sure you knew what I meant.. you were just being Dave Z :D
I hated every minute of training, but I said "Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion."

Please subscribe/comment/support my blog at http://happyham1986.blogspot.com/

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Bundy Volume 1
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Bundy Volume 1 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:18 pm

davez wrote:Ha ha, relax, I'm done!
You lied. Plus someone said Elo. So I'm done here. For those wishing to continue any debate simply use the search field in the top right hand corner of your screen, and you'll find what you were going to say before you even said it! :wink:

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Happyham
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Re: BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

Post by Happyham » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:18 pm

Jonathan May wrote:This is boring because every single point has been raised countless times before.

Can we stop this now?
No one is making you post, Jon. You are allowed to not type at any point. This is a public forum, I can voice my opinion if I want.
I hated every minute of training, but I said "Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion."

Please subscribe/comment/support my blog at http://happyham1986.blogspot.com/

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Mase
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Re: BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

Post by Mase » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:26 pm

Shummm! That is the noise of the point going over your head!

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Jude
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Jude » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:36 pm

Joe Bundy wrote:You lied. Plus someone said Elo.
Cue Rhys...

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davez
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by davez » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:16 pm

Joe Bundy wrote:
davez wrote:Ha ha, relax, I'm done!
You lied.
No I didn't, I responded to a direct question, I didn't offer a further unsolicited contribution.
Apostrophes never make plurals.Incorrect:Table's,Garlando's,DVD's,1900's.Correct:Tables,Garlandos,DVDs,1900s.

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Mase
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Re: BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

Post by Mase » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:57 pm

Mr Bluesky is their greatest hit :wink:

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Teeb
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Re: BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

Post by Teeb » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:26 am

Wow, I didn't expect this sort of heated debate to arise from my original post. I only wanted to point out a minor issue with the ranking system whilst, at the same time, bring Joe's attention to the fact that he is still 3rd in the rankings.

Joe, when are you coming over to a UK tournament? It would be great to catch up.

Tom

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