BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

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Teeb
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BFA July 2011 Rankings Discussion

Post by Teeb » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:33 pm

MOD - Discussion of ranking issues split from July 2011 rankings listing

Hi Boris,

Can we re-evaluate how many ranking points people get for attending overseas tournaments please. At the moment Joe is getting far too many points for turning up to tournaments that none of us can reasonably be expected to attend.

Tom

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Boris » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:01 pm

caféaulait wrote:I gained 7 points? :(
You actually gained 77.6 but lost 70 BPs, hence the small net increase.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Christopher Lyall » Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:20 am

Boris wrote:
caféaulait wrote:I gained 7 points? :(
You actually gained 77.6 but lost 70 BPs, hence the small net increase.
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by ybbun » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:04 pm

Rankings also on the main site: http://www.britfoos.com/rankings

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by tom_k » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:15 pm

Wow, that's embarrassing. Somehow I've slipped to 402nd.
Probably something to do with not being in a tourney for a million years.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Boris » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:26 pm

Teeb wrote:Hi Boris,

Can we re-evaluate how many ranking points people get for attending overseas tournaments please. At the moment Joe is getting far too many points for turning up to tournaments that none of us can reasonably be expected to attend.

Tom
UK-based players have the opportunity to collect ranking tournaments at ITSF events wherever they are held, in the UK, Europe or even Beijing. Yes it is very difficult for us to attend tournaments in the US like Tx State (although a few have done in the past) just as it is equally difficult for Joe H to attend tournaments in Europe. There is no difference between tournaments of the same status held at home and overseas.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Teeb » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:39 pm

But isn't this the UK ranking list, not the ITSF ranking list?

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Happyham » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:25 am

Oi number 3, pipe down!

Its pretty difficult to rank overseas players in a UK ranking list based on results against completely different players. Having said that, I do think that UK players should get rewarded with points for showing enthusiasm and skill in foreign tournaments.

I do agree with Tom in that it seems heavily weighted, and could do with being revised. I remember Hannah or Sarah (or maybe both) ended up being overranked as a result of garlando WCS. Not intending to offend either (although me and sarah have a good laugh about an imfamous quote I made regarding UK women), but at the time, I didn't think either of them should have been rated pro. It wasn't fair to them, or the players below.

I don't kno what to suggest, im just having my say..
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Jonathan May » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:12 am

Happyham wrote:Having said that, I do think that UK players should get rewarded with points for showing enthusiasm and skill in foreign tournaments.
As far as I can remember, the only real reason we started doing this was because Rob travelled for a couple of years and didn't compete much in UK tournaments, so actually fell below first place on the UK rankings... Additionally, at the time there was no ITSF ranking list.

Boris, the logical conclusion of your argument is that you should also continue to adjust the ranks of *every* player in the ranking list based on their results in foreign events. For example, we have Rytis in our rankings, but you have only included points he has gained in UK tournaments... *not* points he has gained in international tournaments (where you have awarded points to UK players). The same goes for others - e.g. Blazic, Tkautz, Jet, Charly and many others in our lists.

I don't see the point ranking any international event at all. It almost always leads to over-ranking players. Foreign events are almost always bigger than UK events and so get a generous category weighting in our ranking - as a result those who can afford (money or time) to buy their way up the rankings (much like in the ITSF rankings) will continue to do so.

We have been around this argument before though, and basically the outcome is "if anyone thinks they can do better, then let them try." So I don't see the point bringing it up again until someone steps forward and offers to run a better system.
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Christopher Lyall » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:32 am

Surely the more fundamental issue is that if Joe is no longer resident in the UK, and no longer competing in UK tournaments, then there must reach a point where there's little reason to have him appear in the main UK ranking list? Or rather, as much reason as having Tony, Gilles or Rytis appear as well.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Happyham » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:40 pm

caféaulait wrote:Surely the more fundamental issue is that if Joe is no longer resident in the UK, and no longer competing in UK tournaments, then there must reach a point where there's little reason to have him appear in the main UK ranking list? Or rather, as much reason as having Tony, Gilles or Rytis appear as well.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Teeb » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:50 pm

I'm not proposing anything as draconian as Chris is suggesting. However, Jon, I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that the way we rank players in the UK to be reviewed if the current system has flaws.

Tom

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Mase » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:12 pm

The idea of rankings is one I find difficult to accept as ever going to be "correct".

People will always have a counter argument, our rankings would be less floored with regards to the inclusion of overseas points if we ran more events. Joe would be scoring less points than you due to lack of exposure.

But as I say it will never be "correct" as someone will have an exception.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Happyham » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:34 pm

If Chris wants to see me just fall down the rankings I'm fine with that. Just making it clear, I'm not bothered either way.

When I inevitably play in a UK tournament again, the only thing better than winning both open titles will be cleaning up in the semi pro and pro events too. Watch out n00bs, I'm coming for you..
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Boris » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:30 pm

Looking at the likes of Rytis, Gilles etc they may only get BFA points from UK tournaments, but their starting points have been boosted according to their international ranking status, so despite both starting as SP they are both now (rightly) at least Pro.

We also have a number of players who rarely attend UK tournaments but compete more often overseas - several of the Bar Kick players travel to overseas Bonzini events, and David Evans, stalwart of team GB has never entered a UK tournament.

Besides ITSF, the following international rankings are taken into account to determine starting positions of overseas players, this is in practice reviewed every couple of years and players upgraded or downgraded as appropriate).
Classement Générale - Bonzini (FFFT)
P4P Ranglistes (master or elite in singles, doubles or both on sliding scale)
Internationale Garlando Rangliste (TFBÖ)
IFP (formerly USTSA) Tornado Rankings

There have been periods when we have and have not included overseas events, but the clincher was when Rob reached the World Finals on Garlando but was not ranked UK No 1 on the table because most of the Garlando events he competed in were overseas. I don't think he has ever competed in a UK Bonzini tournament!

There may well be a case for adjusting weightings of all tournaments at the end of this year, given that points contribute to a single unified list rather than table-specific lists.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Christopher Lyall » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:07 pm

Just to clarify, what exactly are the criteria for a player to appear on the published ranking list, rather than just being kept in our database? Looking down the list, it seems at the moment like some fairly arbitary exceptions are made.

If I'm suggesting anything (and up until now I haven't), it's that inactive players be removed from the published ranking list. Something like, if you haven't played in a UK tournament for 3 or more years then you get taken off the published list. As Tom says, this is the UK ranking list, not the ITSF ranking list. Surely the fundamental difference there is that our ranking list contains only those players relevant to our scene.

I have no issue with how points are awarded.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Boris » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:39 pm

The criterion for appearance on the published list is that he/she being a UK citizen or ordinarily resident in the UK or Ireland and has competed in at least one UK tournament since May 1999 when the first BFA rankings were introduced.

Inactive players fall gradually in rank towards their minimum - i.e. starting points + 10% of their total accrued points. For instance if we had excluded anyone inactive for 3 years Sanjay would not have been on the list when he came 3rd at the UKC. It is not unusual for players to re-emerge after several years of inactivity. Those inactive players who are still SP will have been successful players in the past, the fact that Sanjay had fallen to SP after being one of the top 5 UK players in the mid-noughties shows that the system works as it should do.

The master spreadsheet has a status column which currently distinguishes between UK/Ireland based and overseas players on the list (and deceased players), but as total points for each year are also recorded it would be possible to identify players who have been 'dormant' for want of a better word, for x years or more via 'sum and sort'.

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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Happyham » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:22 pm

caféaulait wrote: Surely the fundamental difference there is that our ranking list contains only those players relevant to our scene.

Chris
Obviously, it seems that a UK ranking list can mean different things to different people. To me it is a list that shows the top UK players, and something that you can be proud of. Its also something that (as accurately as possible) creates seedings for all tournaments.

I think that no matter where you are in the world, if you are a UK citizen you should be eligible to appear on the UK ranking list. If you are inactive, then you slide down the rankings. Just like any other game/sport. The idea of getting removed from the published is a joke. If the reason you want people removed is because it takes too long to slide down the rankings naturally, then thats a seperate problem. If you are saying that people should be removed from the published list simply due to inactivity, then I'm sure you also run around on rooftops stealing kids prezzies on christmas eve. Lets just have a ranking list with 60 people in. Thats basically what you're after.

If someone is not attending UK tournaments but still active in the tournament scene of their adopted country, then I see no reason why those points can't go towards the UK rankings. Not only does it still give the ex-pats a chance to improve on their UK rankings, but it also seeds the player in question as accurately as possible (should they compete in a UK tournament again). Foreign tournament results shouldnt be as heavily weighted as they are now, but something that would at least keep ex-pats from being ranked way too low. If I turned up to a UK tournament (and I know I will) and was seeded something like 12, providing I was still very active internationally, I would think thats pretty innacurate, and pretty unfair.

When Rob wasn't number 1 in the UK rankings, it made a mockery of the rankings. To me the UK rankings isn't about 'who plays the most UK tournaments, or who supports the UK scene the most'. Its about ranking the UK players as accurately as possible. Maybe it has a different meaning for you, Chris. Or anyone else for that matter. I'm fully aware that the rankings are never going to be perfect, but not allowing results from international tournaments count towards a UK citizens UK ranking will only make things more innacurate IMO. Removing players from the list due to inactivity would also make things more innacurate. I mean, what are you suggesting.. that if they havent played for 3 years, they come back as beginner?! If John Blanchard could see this, he would be jizzing in his pants right now.

I get that by having someone like me high in the rankings yet not playing in UK tournaments could mean that you are one place lower in the rankings than what you feel you should be. Which would be a great case if I wasn't playing just as many tournaments if not more than UK players. By not playing against someone like me at tournaments year in year out can create the illusion that I shouldnt be ranked as high as I am, or that you are better than me. Make no mistake about it, I should be ranked as high as I am, and I am better than you. Juj does a great job of proving this every single year, and even worse he IS inactive!

Call me big headed, arrogant, selfish, bias, whatever you like.. I'm fed up of reading about the BFA as some little after school club that you can only be a member of if you go there every week and 'support the cause'. Where its more cliquey than an episode of glee club. Its not till I left the UK that I realise how exclusive it can be. Can't find a criteria for me to be able to even compete for a spot as a singles representative for the ITSF worlds (Lol @ the thought of paying hundreds of dollars to go the UKC, the wild card spot should be allocated some other way). Now you want to remove inactive players from the list, and/or disallow international results from contributing towards their UK ranking position.

Foosball is competitive just like anything else. The strongest should be rewarded. It certainly doesn't feel like that.

Look at someone like Andy Murray. I could be completely wrong, but I doubt he enters all the UK tournaments, but instead competes in international events. He's head and shoulders above number 2 in the UK rankings. Thats how it should be. It would be laughable if it was any other way.

Bleh - like I said.. if I do fall down the rankings, then there's nothing like smashing everyone on the way to a semi pro title. Unless I meet Juj in the final.
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Jonathan May » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:41 pm

Way to miss the point.
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Re: BFA Rankings July 2011

Post by Christopher Lyall » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:51 pm

What Jon said.

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